Kathavatthu 7.6: Itodinnakathā

7.6.1.1

Ito dinnena tattha yāpentīti?

[Opponent:] “Do they sustain themselves there by what is given from here?”

Controverted Point: That what is given here sustains elsewhere.

7.6.1.2

Āmantā.

[Theravādin:] “Yes.”

Controverted Point: That what is given here sustains elsewhere.

7.6.1.3

Ito cīvaraṃ denti taṃ cīvaraṃ tattha paribhuñjantīti?

[Opponent:] “If they give a robe from here, do they enjoy that robe there?”

Theravādin: Your proposition commits you to the further statement that robes, alms-food, lodging, medical requisites for ailments, hard food, soft food, and drink, given in this life, are enjoyed in the after-life—which you deny … And it commits you further to this heterodox position, that one person is the agent for another; that the happiness or ill we feel is wrought by others; that one acts, another experiences the consequences—which you deny … .

7.6.1.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

[Theravādin:] “It should not be said thus …pe…”

7.6.1.5

ito piṇḍapātaṃ denti, ito senāsanaṃ denti, ito gilānapaccayabhesajjaparikkhāraṃ denti, ito khādanīyaṃ denti, ito bhojanīyaṃ denti, ito pānīyaṃ denti;

[Opponent:] “If they give almsfood from here, if they give lodgings from here, if they give requisites of medicines for the sick from here, if they give solid food from here, if they give soft food from here, if they give drink from here;

7.6.1.6

taṃ pānīyaṃ tattha paribhuñjantīti?

do they enjoy that drink there?”

7.6.1.7

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

[Theravādin:] “It should not be said thus …pe…”

7.6.2.1

Ito dinnena tattha yāpentīti?

[Opponent:] “Do they sustain themselves there by what is given from here?”

7.6.2.2

Āmantā.

[Theravādin:] “Yes.”

7.6.2.3

Añño aññassa kārako parakataṃ sukhadukkhaṃ añño karoti, añño paṭisaṃvedetīti?

[Opponent:] “Is one the agent for another; is pleasure and pain made by another; does one do it and another experience it?”

7.6.2.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

[Theravādin:] “It should not be said thus …pe…”

7.6.3.1

Na vattabbaṃ—

[Opponent:] “Should it not be said:

Rājagirika, Siddhatthika: You deny our proposition. But do not the Petas thank him who gives a gift for their advantage, are not their hearts appeased, are they not interested, do they not obtain gladness? Was it not said by the Exalted One:

7.6.3.2

“ito dinnena tattha yāpentī”ti?

‘They sustain themselves there by what is given from here’?”

7.6.3.3

Āmantā.

[Theravādin:] “Yes.”

7.6.3.4

Nanu petā attano atthāya dānaṃ dentaṃ anumodenti, cittaṃ pasādenti, pītiṃ uppādenti, somanassaṃ paṭilabhantīti?

[Opponent:] “Do not the departed rejoice in one giving a gift for their benefit, purify their minds, give rise to joy, and obtain gladness?”

7.6.3.5

Āmantā.

[Theravādin:] “Yes.”

7.6.3.6

Hañci petā attano atthāya dānaṃ dentaṃ anumodenti, cittaṃ pasādenti, pītiṃ uppādenti, somanassaṃ paṭilabhanti;

[Opponent:] “If the departed rejoice in one giving a gift for their benefit, purify their minds, give rise to joy, and obtain gladness;

7.6.3.7

tena vata re vattabbe—

then indeed you should say:

7.6.3.8

“ito dinnena tattha yāpentī”ti.

‘They sustain themselves there by what is given from here.’”

7.6.4.1

Na vattabbaṃ—

[Opponent:] “Should it not be said:

7.6.4.2

“ito dinnena tattha yāpentī”ti?

‘They sustain themselves there by what is given from here’?”

7.6.4.3

Āmantā.

[Theravādin:] “Yes.”

7.6.4.4

Nanu vuttaṃ bhagavatā—

[Opponent:] “Was it not said by the Blessed One:

7.6.5.1

“Unname udakaṃ vuṭṭhaṃ,

‘As rain fallen on high ground

“As water rained upon high slope
Doth ever down the hillside run,
E'en so whate'er on earth is given
Doth reach the hapless Peta shades.
And as the brimming rivers run
To keep the mighty ocean full.
E'en so whate'er, etc.
For where they dwell no husbandry
Nor tending daily kine is there,
No merchant traffic as with us,
No goods to buy with precious coin.
By what is given here below
They share who, dead, 'mong Petas go”?

7.6.5.2

yathāninnaṃ pavattati;

flows down to the low ground,

7.6.5.3

Evameva ito dinnaṃ,

even so what is given from here

7.6.5.4

petānaṃ upakappati.

benefits the departed.

7.6.6.1

Yathā vārivahā pūrā,

Just as full rivers

7.6.6.2

paripūrenti sāgaraṃ;

fill up the ocean,

7.6.6.3

Evameva ito dinnaṃ,

even so what is given from here

7.6.6.4

petānaṃ upakappati.

benefits the departed.

7.6.7.1

Na hi tattha kasī atthi,

For there is no farming there,

7.6.7.2

gorakkhettha na vijjati;

Nor is cattle-farming found there;
2

7.6.7.3

Vaṇijjā tādisī natthi,

nor is there cattle breeding found there;

7.6.7.4

hiraññena kayākayaṃ;

there is no commerce of such kind

7.6.7.5

Ito dinnena yāpenti,

as buying and selling with gold.

7.6.7.6

petā kālaṅkatā tahin”ti.

The departed who have died sustain themselves there

7.6.8.1

Attheva suttantoti?

by what is given from here’?”

Therefore our proposition is right.

7.6.8.2

Āmantā.

“Is there such a Suttanta?”

Therefore our proposition is right.

7.6.8.3

Tena hi ito dinnena tattha yāpentīti.

[Theravādin:] “Yes.”

Therefore our proposition is right.

7.6.9.1

Na vattabbaṃ—

[Opponent:] “Therefore they sustain themselves there by what is given from here.”

Again, was it not said by the Exalted One:

7.6.9.2

“ito dinnena tattha yāpentī”ti?

[Theravādin:] “Should it not be said:

Again, was it not said by the Exalted One:

7.6.9.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

Again, was it not said by the Exalted One:

7.6.9.4

Nanu vuttaṃ bhagavatā—

Was it not said by the Blessed One:

Again, was it not said by the Exalted One:

7.6.9.5

“pañcimāni, bhikkhave, ṭhānāni sampassantā mātāpitaro puttaṃ icchanti kule jāyamānaṃ.

“Monks, seeing these five reasons, parents desire a son born in the family.

“Bhikkhus, there are these five matters which parents, if wishing for a child to be born to them, contemplate. Which are the five? Cared for (they think) he will care for us; or, he will do our work; he will continue our family; he will inherit our property; he will institute offerings to the departed parent shades (Petas).

7.6.9.6

Katamāni pañca?

Which five?

“Bhikkhus, there are these five matters which parents, if wishing for a child to be born to them, contemplate. Which are the five? Cared for (they think) he will care for us; or, he will do our work; he will continue our family; he will inherit our property; he will institute offerings to the departed parent shades (Petas).

7.6.9.7

Bhaṭo vā no bharissati, kiccaṃ vā no karissati, kulavaṃso ciraṃ ṭhassati, dāyajjaṃ paṭipajjissati, atha vā pana petānaṃ kālaṅkatānaṃ dakkhiṇaṃ anuppadassati—

‘Supported by us, he will support us; or he will do duties for us; the family lineage will long endure; he will manage the inheritance; or else he will offer a dedication to departed ancestors’—

“Bhikkhus, there are these five matters which parents, if wishing for a child to be born to them, contemplate. Which are the five? Cared for (they think) he will care for us; or, he will do our work; he will continue our family; he will inherit our property; he will institute offerings to the departed parent shades (Petas).

7.6.9.8

imāni kho, bhikkhave, pañca ṭhānāni sampassantā mātāpitaro puttaṃ icchanti kule jāyamānanti.

these, monks, are the five reasons, seeing which parents desire a son born in the family.”

“Bhikkhus, there are these five matters which parents, if wishing for a child to be born to them, contemplate. Which are the five? Cared for (they think) he will care for us; or, he will do our work; he will continue our family; he will inherit our property; he will institute offerings to the departed parent shades (Petas).

7.6.10.1

Pañca ṭhānāni sampassaṃ,

Seeing five reasons,

“Wise folk who fain a child would have
Have five advantages in view:
Us by his wages he will keep;
His will it be our work to do;

7.6.10.2

puttaṃ icchanti paṇḍitā;

the wise desire a son:

“Wise folk who fain a child would have
Have five advantages in view:
Us by his wages he will keep;
His will it be our work to do;

7.6.10.3

Bhaṭo vā no bharissati,

‘Supported by us, he will support us,

“Wise folk who fain a child would have
Have five advantages in view:
Us by his wages he will keep;
His will it be our work to do;

7.6.10.4

kiccaṃ vā no karissati.

or he will do duties for us.

“Wise folk who fain a child would have
Have five advantages in view:
Us by his wages he will keep;
His will it be our work to do;

7.6.11.1

Kulavaṃso ciraṃ tiṭṭhe,

May the family lineage long endure,

Our family will long endure;
Our heritage to him we leave;
And then again an offering
To Peta-shades he'll institute.
These matters five keep well in view
The wise who fain a child would have.
Wherefore the pious and the good,
Children who know and grateful feel,
Support their mother and their sire,
Remembering all these did for them.
Their tasks they take upon themselves,
E'en as their parents toiled for them;
Do their behests and them maintain,
Nor suffer that their race decay.
Praise to the child of filial heart,
With piety and virtue dight”?

7.6.11.2

dāyajjaṃ paṭipajjati;

he will manage the inheritance;

7.6.11.3

Atha vā pana petānaṃ,

Or else, to the departed,

7.6.11.4

dakkhiṇaṃ anuppadassati.

he will offer a dedication.’

7.6.12.1

Ṭhānānetāni sampassaṃ,

Seeing these reasons,

7.6.12.2

puttaṃ icchanti paṇḍitā;

the wise desire a son;

7.6.12.3

Tasmā santo sappurisā,

Therefore good and true people,

7.6.12.4

kataññū katavedino.

grateful and reciprocal,

7.6.13.1

Bharanti mātāpitaro,

Support mother and father,

7.6.13.2

pubbe katamanussaraṃ;

remembering what was done before;

7.6.13.3

Karonti tesaṃ kiccāni,

They do their duties,

7.6.13.4

yathā taṃ pubbakārinaṃ.

as for those who acted first.

7.6.14.1

Ovādakārī bhaṭaposī,

Obedient to instruction, supporting those who supported him,

7.6.14.2

kulavaṃsaṃ ahāpayaṃ;

not letting the family lineage fail;

7.6.14.3

Saddho sīlena sampanno,

Endowed with faith and virtue,

7.6.14.4

putto hoti pasaṃsiyo”ti.

such a son is praiseworthy.”

7.6.15.1

Attheva suttantoti?

Is there such a discourse?

Was it not so said? Then is our proposition right.

7.6.15.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Was it not so said? Then is our proposition right.

7.6.15.3

Tena hi ito dinnena tattha yāpentīti.

Therefore, they subsist there by what is given from here.

Was it not so said? Then is our proposition right.

7.6.15.4

Ito dinnakathā niṭṭhitā.

Discussion on what is given from here is finished.