Kathavatthu 7.8: Jarāmaraṇaṃvipākotikathā

7.8.1.1

Jarāmaraṇaṃ vipākoti?

Are old age and death a result [of action]?

Controverted Point: That old age and death are a result of action.

7.8.1.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: The first two sections are verbatim as in the preceding discourse, save that instead of “result of action” (kamma-vipāka), “result” (vipāka) only is used.

7.8.1.3

Sukhavedaniyaṃ dukkhavedaniyaṃ adukkhamasukhavedaniyaṃ, sukhāya vedanāya sampayuttaṃ, dukkhāya vedanāya sampayuttaṃ, adukkhamasukhāya vedanāya sampayuttaṃ, phassena sampayuttaṃ, vedanāya sampayuttaṃ, saññāya sampayuttaṃ, cetanāya sampayuttaṃ, cittena sampayuttaṃ, sārammaṇaṃ;

Is it to be felt as pleasant, to be felt as painful, to be felt as neither-painful-nor-pleasant; associated with pleasant feeling, associated with painful feeling, associated with neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling; associated with contact, associated with feeling, associated with perception, associated with volition, associated with consciousness; having an object of consciousness;

7.8.1.4

atthi tassa āvaṭṭanā ābhogo samannāhāro manasikāro cetanā patthanā paṇidhīti?

and does it have turning towards, reflection, coordination, attention, volition, aspiration, resolve?

7.8.1.5

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

7.8.1.6

nanu na sukhavedaniyaṃ na dukkhavedaniyaṃ …pe… anārammaṇaṃ;

is it not neither to be felt as pleasant nor to be felt as painful … without an object of consciousness;

7.8.1.7

natthi tassa āvaṭṭanā …pe… paṇidhīti?

and does it not lack turning towards … resolve?

7.8.1.8

Āmantā.

Yes.

7.8.1.9

Hañci na sukhavedaniyaṃ na dukkhavedaniyaṃ …pe… anārammaṇaṃ;

If it is not experienced as pleasure, not experienced as pain … without an object;

7.8.1.10

natthi tassa āvaṭṭanā …pe… paṇidhi, no ca vata re vattabbe—

it has no advertence … aspiration, then indeed, sir, it should not be said:

7.8.1.11

“jarāmaraṇaṃ vipāko”ti.

“Old age and death are a result.”

7.8.2.1

Phasso vipāko, phasso sukhavedaniyo dukkhavedaniyo …pe…

Contact is a result; contact is experienced as pleasure, experienced as pain …

7.8.2.2

sārammaṇo;

with an object;

7.8.2.3

atthi tassa āvaṭṭanā …pe… paṇidhīti?

does it have advertence … aspiration?

7.8.2.4

Āmantā.

Yes.

7.8.2.5

Jarāmaraṇaṃ vipāko, jarāmaraṇaṃ sukhavedaniyaṃ dukkhavedaniyaṃ …pe…

Old age and death are a result; are old age and death experienced as pleasure, experienced as pain …

7.8.2.6

sārammaṇaṃ;

with an object;

7.8.2.7

atthi tassa āvaṭṭanā …pe… paṇidhīti?

do they have advertence … aspiration?

7.8.2.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

7.8.3.1

Jarāmaraṇaṃ vipāko, jarāmaraṇaṃ na sukhavedaniyaṃ na dukkhavedaniyaṃ …pe… anārammaṇaṃ;

Old age and death are a result; are old age and death not experienced as pleasure, not experienced as pain … without an object;

7.8.3.2

natthi tassa āvaṭṭanā …pe… paṇidhīti?

do they have no advertence … aspiration?

7.8.3.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

7.8.3.4

Phasso vipāko, phasso na sukhavedaniyo na dukkhavedaniyo …pe… anārammaṇo;

Contact is a result; is contact not experienced as pleasure, not experienced as pain … without an object;

7.8.3.5

natthi tassa āvaṭṭanā …pe… paṇidhīti?

does it have no advertence … aspiration?

7.8.3.6

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

7.8.4.1

Akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ jarāmaraṇaṃ, akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ vipākoti?

Is the old age and death of unwholesome states the result of unwholesome states?

Again, you admit, do you not, that the decay and dying of bad states of mind is the result of previous bad states? But then you must also admit that the decay and dying of good states of mind is the result of previous good states—which you deny … But in denying the latter, you imply denial of the former statement … .

7.8.4.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

7.8.4.3

Kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ jarāmaraṇaṃ, kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ vipākoti?

Is the old age and death of wholesome states the result of wholesome states?

7.8.4.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

7.8.5.1

Kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ jarāmaraṇaṃ, na vattabbaṃ—

Is it the old age and death of wholesome states, yet it should not be said:

7.8.5.2

“kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ vipāko”ti?

“They are the result of wholesome states”?

7.8.5.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

7.8.5.4

Akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ jarāmaraṇaṃ, na vattabbaṃ—

Is it the old age and death of unwholesome states, yet it should not be said:

7.8.5.5

“akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ vipāko”ti?

“They are the result of unwholesome states”?

7.8.5.6

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

7.8.6.1

Kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ jarāmaraṇaṃ, akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ vipākoti?

Is the old age and death of wholesome states the result of unwholesome states?

Or do you hold that the decay and dying of good states of mind is the result of previous bad states? You do, you say. Then you imply that the decay and dying of bad states is the result of previous good states—which you deny … But in denying this, you imply denial of the former statement … .

7.8.6.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

7.8.6.3

Akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ jarāmaraṇaṃ, kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ vipākoti?

Is the old age and death of unwholesome states the result of wholesome states?

7.8.6.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

7.8.7.1

Akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ jarāmaraṇaṃ, na vattabbaṃ—

Is it the old age and death of unwholesome states, yet it should not be said:

7.8.7.2

“kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ vipāko”ti?

“They are the result of wholesome states”?

7.8.7.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

7.8.7.4

Kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ jarāmaraṇaṃ, na vattabbaṃ—

Is it the old age and death of wholesome states, yet it should not be said:

7.8.7.5

“akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ vipāko”ti?

“They are the result of unwholesome states”?

7.8.7.6

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

7.8.8.1

Kusalānañca akusalānañca dhammānaṃ jarāmaraṇaṃ, akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ vipākoti?

Is the old age and death of both wholesome and unwholesome states the result of unwholesome states?

Or do you affirm that the decay and dying of both good and bad states of mind are the result of bad states? You do, you say. Then you must say no less: “is the result of good states”—which you deny … .

7.8.8.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

7.8.8.3

Kusalānañca akusalānañca dhammānaṃ jarāmaraṇaṃ, kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ vipākoti?

Is the old age and death of both wholesome and unwholesome states the result of wholesome states?

7.8.8.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

7.8.9.1

Kusalānañca akusalānañca dhammānaṃ jarāmaraṇaṃ, na vattabbaṃ—

Is it the old age and death of both wholesome and unwholesome states, yet it should not be said:

7.8.9.2

“kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ vipāko”ti?

“They are the result of wholesome states”?

7.8.9.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

7.8.9.4

Kusalānañca akusalānañca dhammānaṃ jarāmaraṇaṃ, na vattabbaṃ—

Is it the old age and death of both wholesome and unwholesome states, yet it should not be said:

7.8.9.5

“akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ vipāko”ti?

“They are the result of unwholesome states”?

7.8.9.6

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

7.8.10.1

Na vattabbaṃ—

Should it not be said:

Andhaka: You say my proposition is false. But surely acts conduce to the deterioration and to the curtailment of life? If so, my proposition is true.

7.8.10.2

“jarāmaraṇaṃ vipāko”ti?

“Old age and death are a result”?

Andhaka: You say my proposition is false. But surely acts conduce to the deterioration and to the curtailment of life? If so, my proposition is true.

7.8.10.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

Andhaka: You say my proposition is false. But surely acts conduce to the deterioration and to the curtailment of life? If so, my proposition is true.

7.8.10.4

Nanu atthi dubbaṇṇasaṃvattaniyaṃ kammaṃ appāyukasaṃvattaniyaṃ kammanti?

Is there not action leading to ugliness, action leading to a short life?

Andhaka: You say my proposition is false. But surely acts conduce to the deterioration and to the curtailment of life? If so, my proposition is true.

7.8.10.5

Āmantā.

Yes.

Andhaka: You say my proposition is false. But surely acts conduce to the deterioration and to the curtailment of life? If so, my proposition is true.

7.8.10.6

Hañci atthi dubbaṇṇasaṃvattaniyaṃ kammaṃ appāyukasaṃvattaniyaṃ kammaṃ, tena vata re vattabbe—

If there is action leading to ugliness, action leading to a short life, then indeed, sir, it should be said:

Andhaka: You say my proposition is false. But surely acts conduce to the deterioration and to the curtailment of life? If so, my proposition is true.

7.8.10.7

“jarāmaraṇaṃ vipāko”ti.

“Old age and death are a result.”

Andhaka: You say my proposition is false. But surely acts conduce to the deterioration and to the curtailment of life? If so, my proposition is true.

7.8.10.8

Jarāmaraṇaṃ vipākotikathā niṭṭhitā.

The discussion on whether old age and death are a result is finished.