Kathavatthu 8.2.4

8.2.4.1

Atthi kāmabhavo, kāmabhavo bhavo gati sattāvāso saṃsāro yoni viññāṇaṭṭhiti attabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

There is the realm of sensual desire; and is the realm of sensual desire an existence, a destination, an abode of beings, saṃsāra, a womb, a station of consciousness, an acquisition of an individual existence?

You admit that every one of these categories or notions applies to each of the three planes of life named above, the only difference being that the first two—Kāma-life and Rūpa-life—are five-mode existences; the last—Arūpa-life—is a four-mode existence (that is, without material qualities). If then there is an intermediate stage of life, you must be able to predicate some or all of these notions or categories of it. But you say you cannot … .

8.2.4.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.4.3

Atthi antarābhavo, antarābhavo bhavo gati sattāvāso saṃsāro yoni viññāṇaṭṭhiti attabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

There is the intermediate existence; and is the intermediate existence an existence, a destination, an abode of beings, saṃsāra, a womb, a station of consciousness, an acquisition of an individual existence?

8.2.4.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.4.5

atthi kāmabhavūpagaṃ kammanti?

Is there kamma leading to the realm of sensual desire?

8.2.4.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.4.7

Atthi antarābhavūpagaṃ kammanti?

Is there kamma leading to intermediate existence?

8.2.4.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.4.9

atthi kāmabhavūpagā sattāti?

Are there beings heading for the realm of sensual desire?

8.2.4.10

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.4.11

Atthi antarābhavūpagā sattāti?

Are there beings heading for intermediate existence?

8.2.4.12

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.4.13

kāmabhave sattā jāyanti jīyanti mīyanti cavanti upapajjantīti?

Do beings get born, age, die, pass away, and re-arise in the realm of sensual desire?

8.2.4.14

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.4.15

Antarābhave sattā jāyanti jīyanti mīyanti cavanti upapajjantīti?

Do beings get born, age, die, pass away, and re-arise in an intermediate existence?

8.2.4.16

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.4.17

kāmabhave atthi rūpaṃ vedanā saññā saṅkhārā viññāṇanti?

In the realm of sensual desire are there material form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness?

8.2.4.18

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.4.19

Antarābhave atthi rūpaṃ vedanā saññā saṅkhārā viññāṇanti?

In an intermediate existence are there material form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness?

8.2.4.20

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.4.21

kāmabhavo pañcavokārabhavoti?

Is the realm of sensual desire a five-constituent existence?

8.2.4.22

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.4.23

Antarābhavo pañcavokārabhavoti?

Is the intermediate state of existence a five-aggregate existence?

8.2.4.24

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….