大般涅槃經集解 12.24

12.24

案僧亮曰：迦葉取譬意異，乘前譬為難也。法瑤曰：復難有餘二句也。佛向答云明結盡無為是常，如來亦常。復以如來與煩惱俱滅，然後是常。故有此難也。僧宗曰：人情未解，還執鐵譬。前句所舉迸鐵熱與赤色，既滅之後不知所在。果如所譬，如來應無也。如來人也、煩惱法也，人法兩無，俱同鐵譬，不應復有也。寶亮曰：人情於答第四難中疑心未已，今更轉譬作難。若如佛言已離煩惱，如彼迸鐵滅已無有，法身應常者。我謂：應如砧上之鐵，不免無常，彼鐵出火則黑、入火則赤。佛亦如是，煩惱滅已，應還生也。智秀曰：躡前答中云不在五趣，乘聲為難。若不在五趣，則不應有常身；若有常身，則應有處而現見煩惱。如彼迸鐵赤色，滅已莫知所至。煩惱滅已，與此譬同也。明駿案：此下第二翻，迦葉更作兩難也。

Sengliang states: "Kāśyapa grasps the analogy with a different intention, using the preceding analogy to raise an objection." Fayao states: "He again objects to the two clauses on with-remainder. The Buddha's answer just now explained that the unconditioned state of the exhaustion of fetters is permanent, and the Tathāgata is also permanent. Furthermore, the Tathāgata and the afflictions are extinguished together, and only then is there permanence. Hence this objection arises." Sengzong states: "The human mind has not yet understood, and still grasps at the analogy of iron. In the preceding clause, the heat and red color of the sparked iron, once extinguished, are not known to be anywhere. If it is really as the analogy states, the Tathāgata should not exist. The Tathāgata is a person, and afflictions are dharmas; when both person and dharma are absent, both being like the iron analogy, neither should exist any longer." Baoliang states: "In answering the fourth objection, human doubt had not yet ceased, and now the analogy is shifted to raise an objection. If, as the Buddha said, having abandoned afflictions, like that sparked iron which after extinction ceases to exist, the dharmakāya should be permanent; I would say: it should be like the iron on the anvil, not escaping impermanence—when that iron comes out of the fire it is black, and when it enters the fire it is red. The Buddha is likewise: after afflictions are extinguished, they should arise again." Zhixiu states: "Following the preceding answer which said 'not being in the five destinies,' he uses the phrasing to raise an objection. If he is not in the five destinies, then there should not be a permanent body; if there is a permanent body, then there should be a place where afflictions are visibly present. Like the red color of that sparked iron, once extinguished, no one knows where it goes. After afflictions are extinguished, it is the same as this analogy." Mingjun notes: "Below is the second turn, where Kāśyapa constructs two further objections."