集古今佛道論衡 4.21

4.21

上又笑。重問曰。向云。道為物祖能生萬象。以何為體。答。大道無形　難。有形可有。道無形應無道。答雖復無形何妨有道。難。無形得有法亦可有形。是無法有形不是無。無形不有道。答。大道生萬物。萬法即是道。何得言無道。難。象若非是道。可使象外別有道。道能生於象。既指象為道。象外即無道。無道說誰生。　答。大道雖無形。無形之道能生於萬法。　難。子外見有母。知母能生子。象外不見道。誰知汝道生。又前言。道能生萬法。萬法即是道。亦可如母能生子。子應即是母。又前言。道為萬法祖。自違彼經教。老子云。無名天地始。有名萬物母。母祖語雖殊。根本是一義。道既是無名。寧得為物祖。惠長總領前語不得。因嘲之曰。既非得意何為杜默。已倒穀皮答吞米賊　又難曰。道無有形。指象為道。形亦可道無有祖。指象為物祖。答。道為物祖象非物祖　難。道別有形不得。象即道形。答。大道無形　難。大道非祖　答。道本無名。強為立名為物之祖。那得非祖。難。道本無名。強為立名。亦可道本非祖強為物祖　答。然。難。道本非是祖。非祖強說祖。亦可大道無有形無形強說形　又難。離象無別道。象未生時有道生。亦可離眼無別目。未有目時有眼見　答。道是玄微。眼為麁法。二義不同。安得為類　難。象是質礙。道本虛無。有無性乖。若為同體。惠長又無答。辯奏曰。靈辯忝預玄門實懷慈忍。雖逢死雀不願重彈　上大笑稱善　五月十六日。於蓬萊宮。又與道士論難。其道士對答不相領。當無可記錄。至六月十二日。於蓬萊宮蓬萊殿論義。靈辯與道士李榮同奉見。上謂榮曰。襄陽道人有精神。好交言無令墮其圍中。榮奏曰。孔子尚畏後生。況榮不如前哲。辯奏曰。靈辯誠為後生。李榮故當是老（以榮住在蜀中故有此譏）　上大笑曰。榮已被逼。榮開昇玄經題曰。道玄不可以言象詮　辯問曰。玄理本寂思慮情智不可度量。妙道既絕言詞。若為得啟題目答。玄雖不可說。亦可以言說。雖復有言說。此說無所說　難。玄若可言詮。即當云可詮。如實不可詮。當云不可詮。何得向云不可詮。今復言可詮。榮領難不得。辯謂榮曰。求魚兔者必藉於筌蹄。尋玄旨者要資於言象。在言既其寋。棘於理信亦迷朦。又更為述前難　答曰。玄道實絕言。假言以詮玄。玄道或有說。玄道或無說。微妙至道中無說無不說　辯曰。此是中論龍樹菩薩偈。偈云。諸佛或說我。或說於無我。諸法實相中。無我無非我。安得影茲正偈為彼邪言。竊菩薩之詞作監齋之語。榮曰。佛道何殊西域名為涅槃止是此處死滅　辯曰。螢光日光不可一。邪法正法安得齊。西域名涅槃唐翻為滅者。此乃玄寂之妙境。恬澹之虛宗。絕患累於後身。證無為於極地。詎得以生死變謝而相擬乎。子聞涅槃亦是滅生死亦是滅。兩滅即是齊。烏鵲亦有聲。鸞鳳亦有聲。二聲應可一。二鳥俱出聲。清雅猶來別。二法雖同滅。冥寂本不均。因呵曰。足下若不情昏菽麥目闇玄黃。何為以至人涅槃。同庶類生死　上大笑曰。向者道士標章。今乃翻是道人竪義。令難問。玄理是可詮。可使以言詮。玄理體是不可詮。如何得言詮。答。曉悟物情假以言詮。玄亦可詮　難。玄體不可詮。假言以詮玄。玄遂可詮者。空刺不可拔。強以手來拔。空刺應可拔。反問。空是玄不。反答。非是玄。反難。是玄可並玄非玄。若為得並玄。正難空既不並。玄空體非是玄。言既可詮玄可並玄非玄。若為得並玄。正難空既不並玄空體非是玄。言既可詮玄言應得是玄。言雖不是玄言亦可詮玄。空雖不是玄何妨空並玄。答。玄是微妙。如何以空來並　難。玄是微妙。如何以言來詮　又汝玄理不可詮。玄理亦可詮。空雖不可並。空亦應可並。空體不可並。非並不得並。玄體不可詮。非詮不得詮。榮不能答。直抗聲曰。明王有道致使番僧入貢　辯曰。日磾生於塞外。為忠臣於漢朝。道陵長自蜀中。作米賊於魏日。榮默然不答。又謂之曰。得嘲急解。何事踟蹰。榮曰。既得玄旨。所以杜默。辯曰。魚目不類明珠。結舌何關杜口。上大笑。令更難　難曰。玄理幽深至人可測。道士庸昧若為得知。答。玄雖幽奧。至人深知凡則淺知。難。道士學玄理。至人能深知。道士得淺知。道士學仙法。仙人能高飛。道士應下飛。仙飛有高下。道士高下俱不飛。玄理有淺深。道士淺深俱不測。榮不能答　辯嘲之曰。老子兩卷本末研尋。莊生七篇何曾披讀。頭戴死穀皮。欲似鈍啄木。榮未及對。又嘲曰。聞君來蜀道。蜀道信為難。何不乘鳧遊帝里。翻被枷項入長安（勅追榮入京日著枷）榮曰。死灰其慮槁木其形。行忘坐忘著枷何妨　辯曰。行忘坐忘終身是忘。亦可行枷坐枷終身著枷。仍嘲之曰。槁木猶應重。死灰方未然。既逢田甲尿。仍遭酷吏懸。榮未答。又嘲曰。柱枷異支策。擎枷非椐梧。閉口臨枷柄。真似濫吹竽。榮恚曰。天子知有榮。乃與榮枷著。如汝道人之流　主上何曾記錄　辯曰。天子今年知有榮。來年亦應知有榮。今年既與榮枷著。來年亦與榮枷著。聖恩方復未已。著枷豈有了時。又謂曰。詳刑抵羅　天子未必皆知。道士著枷　聖人何曾記識　又謂曰。李榮著枷　聖人必不承意。儻若因枷被識。亦猶以醜見知。榮慚怒勵聲曰。道門英秀蜀郡李榮。何物小僧敢欲相輕　辯曰。李榮李榮。先乏雄情爽氣。何勞瞋目勵聲。仍嘲曰。區區蜀地老。竊號道門英。已摧頭上角。何用口中鳴。榮不能酬。但曰。道人何所知。努力加飡飯　辯曰。眾僧本來齋潔。故當飡飯進蔬。道士唯重醮祭。應須酌醴焚魚。榮曰。天宮清淨何意論魚　辯曰。向已同齋何為語飯（當論時在中後）榮曰。蠢爾荊蠻詎堪為敵　辯曰。周德未被。往日暫有荊蠻。皇澤遠覃。今時猶見蜀㺐　榮曰。心裏若無烏泥。袈裟何為得黑　辯曰。心中既有柴棘。頭上遂裹木皮。末席　辯嘲榮曰道士當諦聽。沙門贈子言。鴻鶴已高逝。燕雀徒自喧。已前雜嘲甚多。不能盡記。每嘲　上皆垂恩欣笑。

The Emperor laughed again, and asked once more: "Earlier you said, 'The Dao is the ancestor of all things and can generate the myriad phenomena.' What does it take as its essence?"
[Fang Huichang] replied: "The Great Dao has no form."
[Lingbian] objected: "If there is form, it can exist; as the Dao has no form, there should be no Dao."
[Fang Huichang] replied: "Although it has no form, what prevents the Dao from existing?"
[Lingbian] objected: "If that which is without form can have a phenomenon, then that which has form could also be without phenomena. That which has form is not non-existent; that which has no form does not have the Dao."
[Fang Huichang] replied: "The Great Dao generates the myriad things; the myriad phenomena are themselves the Dao. How can you say there is no Dao?"
[Lingbian] objected: "If phenomena were not the Dao, then outside phenomena there could separately be the Dao. The Dao can generate phenomena; but since you identify phenomena as the Dao, outside phenomena there is no Dao. If there is no Dao, who is said to generate them?"
[Fang Huichang] replied: "Although the Great Dao has no form, the Dao without form can generate the myriad phenomena."
[Lingbian] objected: "Apart from the child, one sees a mother, and knows the mother can give birth to the child. Outside phenomena one does not see the Dao; who knows that your Dao generates them? Furthermore, you said earlier that the Dao can generate the myriad phenomena and that the myriad phenomena are themselves the Dao. Then, just as a mother can give birth to a child, the child ought to be the mother itself. Moreover, your earlier statement that the Dao is the ancestor of the myriad phenomena contradicts your own scripture's teaching. Laozi says: 'Nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth; named is the mother of the myriad things.' Though the words 'mother' and 'ancestor' differ, their root meaning is one. Since the Dao is nameless, how can it be the ancestor of things?"
Huichang could not grasp these preceding words at all. [Lingbian] therefore mocked him, saying: "Since you have not grasped the point, why remain mute? The paper hat has already toppled, answering the rice-eating thief!"
[Lingbian] objected again, saying: "The Dao has no form, yet you point to phenomena as the Dao; likewise, the Dao having no ancestor, you could point to phenomena as the ancestor of things."
[Fang Huichang] replied: "The Dao is the ancestor of things; phenomena are not the ancestor of things."
[Lingbian] objected: "If the Dao cannot separately have a form, phenomena are the Dao's form."
[Fang Huichang] replied: "The Great Dao has no form."
[Lingbian] objected: "Then the Great Dao is not an ancestor."
[Fang Huichang] replied: "The Dao originally has no name; one is forced to give it a name as the ancestor of things. How could it not be an ancestor?"
[Lingbian] objected: "The Dao originally has no name, and one is forced to give it a name; likewise, the Dao originally is not an ancestor, and is forced to be the ancestor of things."
[Fang Huichang] replied: "Yes."
[Lingbian] objected: "If the Dao originally is not an ancestor, and what is not an ancestor is forced to be called an ancestor; then the Great Dao has no form, and what has no form is forced to be called a form."
[Lingbian] further objected: "Apart from phenomena there is no separate Dao; when phenomena are not yet born, there is the Dao that is born. Likewise, apart from the eye there is no separate sight; before there is an eye, there would be the eye's seeing."
[Fang Huichang] replied: "The Dao is subtle and profound; the eye is a coarse phenomenon. The two meanings are not the same; how could they be analogous?"
[Lingbian] objected: "Phenomena are obstructive matter; the Dao is fundamentally empty and non-existent. Being and non-being are opposed in nature; how could they be of the same essence?"
Huichang again had no answer.
Lingbian reported to the throne: "Lingbian is unworthy to belong to the mysterious gate, yet truly harbors compassion and forbearance. Though encountering a dead sparrow, I do not wish to shoot it again."
The Emperor laughed heartily and praised him.
On the sixteenth day of the fifth month, in the Penglai Palace, [Lingbian] again debated with Daoist priests. Their replies were incoherent, so nothing was recorded.
On the twelfth day of the sixth month, at Penglai Hall in the Penglai Palace, doctrine was debated. Lingbian and the Daoist priest Li Rong were received in audience together. The Emperor said to Rong: "The śramaṇa of Xiangyang is sharp-witted; engage in debate well, and do not fall into his encirclement!"
Rong reported to the throne: "Even Confucius stood in awe of the younger generation; how much less is Rong equal to the ancient sages!"
Bian reported: "Lingbian is indeed of the younger generation, while Li Rong is naturally an old hand." (Because Rong lived in Shu, Bian made this gibe.)
The Emperor laughed heartily and said: "Rong is already hard pressed!"
Rong expounded the title of the Shengxuan jing, saying: "The mysterious Dao cannot be explained by words or phenomena."
Bian asked: "The mysterious principle is fundamentally tranquil; thoughts, feelings, and intellectual knowledge cannot measure it. Since the wondrous Dao transcends words, how can you introduce the title?"
[Rong] replied: "Although the mystery cannot be spoken of, it can also be spoken of with words. Although there is speaking, this speaking speaks of nothing."
[Bian] objected: "If the mystery can be explained by words, you should say it can be explained; if it truly cannot be explained, you should say it cannot be explained. How could you say earlier that it cannot be explained, and now say again that it can be explained?"
Rong could not grasp the objection. Bian said to Rong: "Those who seek fish and hares must rely on traps and snares; those who pursue the mysterious import must depend on words and phenomena. When in words you are already impeded and tongue-tied, your grasp of the principle is truly clouded and confused!"
[Bian] then restated the previous objection.
[Rong] replied: "The mysterious Dao truly transcends words; one borrows words to explain the mystery. The mysterious Dao sometimes has speech, and the mysterious Dao sometimes has no speech. Within the wondrous, supreme Dao, there is neither speech nor absence of speech."
Bian said: "This is a verse by Bodhisattva Nāgārjuna from the Madhyamaka-śāstra. The verse says: / 'The Buddhas have spoken of a self, / and have also spoken of non-self. / Within the true nature of all phenomena, / there is neither self nor non-self.' / How can you ape this correct verse to produce your heterodox speech, stealing the words of a Bodhisattva to make them the talk of a supervisor of the fast?"
Rong said: "How do Buddhism and Daoism differ? In the Western Regions it is called nirvāṇa; here it is simply death and cessation."
Bian said: "The glow of a firefly and the light of the sun cannot be equated; how can heterodox teachings and the correct Dharma be made equal? That which in the Western Regions is called nirvāṇa and translated into Tang as 'extinction' is the wondrous realm of mysterious tranquility, the empty source of serene detachness. It severs afflictions and ties regarding future bodies, and realizes non-action at the ultimate stage. How could it be compared to the changes and declines of birth and death? Hearing that nirvāṇa is extinction and birth and death is also extinction, you think both extinctions are equal! Crows and magpies have calls, and simurghs and phoenixes also have calls; should their two sounds be equated? Both birds produce sounds, but the pure and the elegant have always differed. Though the two dharmas are both called extinction, their dark quietude is fundamentally unequal!"
He then scolded him: "If your mind were not blind to beans and wheat, and your eyes not blind to dark and yellow, why would you equate the nirvāṇa of the supreme person with the birth and death of the common throng?"
The Emperor laughed heartily and said: "Just now the Daoist priest set forth the thesis, but now it turns out to be the śramaṇa who establishes the doctrine!"
He ordered [Bian] to raise objections.
"If the mysterious principle can be explained, you may have it explained by words. If the essence of the mysterious principle cannot be explained, how can it be explained by words?"
[Rong] replied: "To awaken people's minds, one borrows words to explain it; the mystery can also be explained."
[Bian] objected: "If the essence of the mystery cannot be explained, yet borrowing words to explain the mystery makes the mystery explainable, then when a thorn in empty space cannot be pulled out, if one forcibly pulls it with one's hand, the thorn in empty space ought to be pullable."
[Rong] counter-asked: "Is emptiness the mystery or not?"
[Bian] replied in return: "It is not the mystery."
[Rong] counter-objected: "If it were the mystery, it could be matched with the mystery; since it is not the mystery, how could it be matched with the mystery?"
[Bian] properly objected: "Since emptiness is not matched with the mystery, the essence of emptiness is not the mystery. Since words can explain the mystery, they can be matched with the mystery. If they are not the mystery, how can they be matched with the mystery?"
[Bian] properly objected: "Since emptiness is not matched with the mystery, the essence of emptiness is not the mystery. Since words can explain the mystery, words ought to be the mystery. If words, though not the mystery, can nevertheless explain the mystery, then although emptiness is not the mystery, what prevents emptiness from matching the mystery?"
[Rong] replied: "The mystery is subtle and profound; how can you compare it to emptiness?"
[Bian] objected: "The mystery is subtle and profound; how can you explain it with words?"
[Bian] further said: "According to you, the mysterious principle cannot be explained, yet the mysterious principle can also be explained. Then although emptiness cannot be matched, emptiness should also be matchable. If the essence of emptiness cannot be matched, what is not matched cannot be matched; if the essence of the mystery cannot be explained, what is not explained cannot be explained."
Rong could not answer, and merely raised his voice to say: "The enlightened ruler possesses the Dao, causing barbarian monks to enter and offer tribute!"
Bian said: "Jin Midi was born beyond the frontier, yet became a loyal minister to the Han dynasty. Zhang Daoling grew up in Shu, yet became a rice-thief in the days of Wei!"
Rong was silent and did not reply.
[Bian] said to him again: "You have been mocked; hasten to resolve it! Why do you hesitate?"
Rong said: "Having grasped the mysterious import, I keep silent."
Bian said: "Fish eyes do not resemble bright pearls; what does biting your tongue have to do with keeping silent?"
The Emperor laughed heartily and ordered further objections.
[Bian] objected: "The mysterious principle is profound and dark; the supreme person can fathom it. A Daoist priest is mediocre and ignorant; how could he know it?"
[Rong] replied: "Although the mystery is profound and hidden, the supreme person knows it deeply, while the ordinary person knows it shallowly."
[Bian] objected: "A Daoist priest studies the mysterious principle: the supreme person can know it deeply, while the Daoist priest attains shallow knowledge. A Daoist priest studies the methods of immortals: immortals can fly high, while the Daoist priest should fly low. Immortals' flying has high and low, but Daoist priests fly neither high nor low; the mysterious principle has shallow and deep, but Daoist priests fathom neither shallow nor deep."
Rong could not answer.
Bian mocked him, saying: "You pore over Laozi's two scrolls from beginning to end; when have you ever opened Zhuangzi's seven chapters? On your head you wear dead bark, resembling a dull woodpecker!"
Before Rong could reply, [Bian] mocked him again: "I hear you came along the Shu roads; the Shu roads are truly perilous! Why did you not ride a mallard to roam the imperial capital, but instead entered Chang'an wearing a wooden cangue around your neck?" (When an imperial decree summoned Rong to the capital, he wore a cangue.)
Rong said: "My thoughts are like dead ashes, my body like withered wood. Forgetting while walking, forgetting while sitting—what harm is there in wearing a cangue?"
Bian said: "Forgetting while walking and forgetting while sitting, one forgets all one's life; so too, cangued while walking and cangued while sitting, you wear a cangue all your life!"
He further mocked him: "Withered wood ought still to be heavy; dead ashes are not yet aflame. Having met with the urine of Tian Jia, you then suffered suspension by cruel clerks!"
Rong did not reply.
[Bian] mocked him again: "Leaning on a cangue differs from holding a staff; supporting a cangue is not leaning on an armrest. Keeping your mouth shut before the cangue's bar, you truly resemble someone faking the playing of the yu pipe!"
Rong said angrily: "The Son of Heaven knew of Rong, and so gave Rong a cangue to wear. As for the likes of you śramaṇas, when has the Sovereign ever taken note of you?"
Bian said: "The Son of Heaven knows of Rong this year, and next year he will also know of Rong. Having given Rong a cangue to wear this year, next year he will also give Rong a cangue to wear! Since the imperial grace will not cease, when will your wearing of the cangue ever end?"
He further said to him: "When punishments are closely examined and fall under the law, the Son of Heaven does not necessarily know of them all. When a Daoist priest wears a cangue, when has the Sage ever taken note of it?"
He further said to him: "Li Rong wears a cangue; the Sage certainly had no intention of favoring him. If by chance he became known on account of the cangue, it is just like being known on account of ugliness."
Rong felt ashamed and angry, and said in a harsh voice: "I am the elite of the Daoist gate, Li Rong of Shu commandery! What kind of petty monk dares to despise me?"
Bian said: "Li Rong, Li Rong! You were already lacking in heroic spirit and vitality; why trouble yourself to glare and raise your voice?"
He then mocked him: "An old man from the petty land of Shu, falsely claiming the title of Daoist elite! Having already broken the horn on your head, what is the use of crowing from your mouth?"
Rong could not reply, and merely said: "What does a śramaṇa know? Strive hard to take more rice!"
Bian said: "The assembly of monks is pure and disciplined by nature, so they naturally eat rice and partake of vegetables. Daoist priests only value jiao offerings, so they should pour sweet wine and burn fish."
Rong said: "The Heavenly Palace is pure; why speak of fish?"
Bian said: "Earlier we shared the midday meal; why speak of rice?" (At the time of the debate it was past noon.)
Rong said: "Ignorant Jing barbarians—how could they be worthy opponents?"
Bian said: "Before the virtue of the Zhou spread, formerly there were temporarily Jing barbarians; now that the imperial bounty extends far, we still see Shu monkeys today!"
Rong said: "If inside your heart there is no dark mud, why is your kāṣāya black?"
Bian said: "Since in your heart there are briars and thorns, on your head you wrap tree bark!"
At the end of the session, Bian mocked Rong, saying:
"Daoist priest, listen attentively; / A śramaṇa offers you these words: / The great swan and crane have already flown high; / Swallows and sparrows chirp in vain!"
There were many other miscellaneous mockeries prior to this, which cannot all be recorded. At every mockery, the Emperor showed favor and laughed joyfully.