Kathavatthu 1.8: Ekaccaṃatthītikathā

1.8.1.1

Atītaṃ atthīti?

Does the past exist?

Theravādin: (i.)Does the past exist? Some of it exists, you reply, some does not exist. You must then admit, in equivalent terms, that some of it has ceased, departed, passed away, utterly passed away; some of it has not ceased, departed, passed away, utterly passed away. Yet you deny this.

1.8.1.2

Ekaccaṃ atthi, ekaccaṃ natthīti.

Some exists, some does not exist.

1.8.1.3

Ekaccaṃ niruddhaṃ, ekaccaṃ na niruddhaṃ;

[Then] has some ceased, some not ceased;

1.8.1.4

ekaccaṃ vigataṃ, ekaccaṃ avigataṃ;

has some departed, some not departed;

1.8.1.5

ekaccaṃ atthaṅgataṃ, ekaccaṃ na atthaṅgataṃ;

has some vanished, some not vanished;

1.8.1.6

ekaccaṃ abbhatthaṅgataṃ, ekaccaṃ na abbhatthaṅgatanti?

has some disappeared, some not disappeared?

1.8.1.7

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

1.8.2.1

Atītaṃ ekaccaṃ atthi, ekaccaṃ natthīti?

Does some of the past exist, and some not exist?

You must also admit, more specifically, that of past things of which the results are not yet matured some are existent, some not—you deny this—and that of past things of which the results are matured, some are existent, some not—you deny this—further, that of things which are without result, some exist, some do not. This also you deny.

1.8.2.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

You must also admit, more specifically, that of past things of which the results are not yet matured some are existent, some not—you deny this—and that of past things of which the results are matured, some are existent, some not—you deny this—further, that of things which are without result, some exist, some do not. This also you deny.

1.8.2.3

Atītā avipakkavipākā dhammā ekacce atthi, ekacce natthīti?

Do some past phenomena whose result has not ripened exist, and some not exist?

You must also admit, more specifically, that of past things of which the results are not yet matured some are existent, some not—you deny this—and that of past things of which the results are matured, some are existent, some not—you deny this—further, that of things which are without result, some exist, some do not. This also you deny.

1.8.2.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

You must also admit, more specifically, that of past things of which the results are not yet matured some are existent, some not—you deny this—and that of past things of which the results are matured, some are existent, some not—you deny this—further, that of things which are without result, some exist, some do not. This also you deny.

1.8.2.5

atītaṃ ekaccaṃ atthi, ekaccaṃ natthīti?

Does some of the past exist, and some not exist?

You must also admit, more specifically, that of past things of which the results are not yet matured some are existent, some not—you deny this—and that of past things of which the results are matured, some are existent, some not—you deny this—further, that of things which are without result, some exist, some do not. This also you deny.

1.8.2.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

You must also admit, more specifically, that of past things of which the results are not yet matured some are existent, some not—you deny this—and that of past things of which the results are matured, some are existent, some not—you deny this—further, that of things which are without result, some exist, some do not. This also you deny.

1.8.2.7

Atītā vipakkavipākā dhammā ekacce atthi, ekacce natthīti?

Do some past phenomena whose result has ripened exist, and some not exist?

You must also admit, more specifically, that of past things of which the results are not yet matured some are existent, some not—you deny this—and that of past things of which the results are matured, some are existent, some not—you deny this—further, that of things which are without result, some exist, some do not. This also you deny.

1.8.2.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

You must also admit, more specifically, that of past things of which the results are not yet matured some are existent, some not—you deny this—and that of past things of which the results are matured, some are existent, some not—you deny this—further, that of things which are without result, some exist, some do not. This also you deny.

1.8.2.9

atītaṃ ekaccaṃ atthi, ekaccaṃ natthīti?

Does some of the past exist, and some not exist?

You must also admit, more specifically, that of past things of which the results are not yet matured some are existent, some not—you deny this—and that of past things of which the results are matured, some are existent, some not—you deny this—further, that of things which are without result, some exist, some do not. This also you deny.

1.8.2.10

Āmantā.

Yes.

You must also admit, more specifically, that of past things of which the results are not yet matured some are existent, some not—you deny this—and that of past things of which the results are matured, some are existent, some not—you deny this—further, that of things which are without result, some exist, some do not. This also you deny.

1.8.2.11

Atītā avipākā dhammā ekacce atthi ekacce natthīti?

Do some past phenomena without result exist, and some not exist?

You must also admit, more specifically, that of past things of which the results are not yet matured some are existent, some not—you deny this—and that of past things of which the results are matured, some are existent, some not—you deny this—further, that of things which are without result, some exist, some do not. This also you deny.

1.8.2.12

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

You must also admit, more specifically, that of past things of which the results are not yet matured some are existent, some not—you deny this—and that of past things of which the results are matured, some are existent, some not—you deny this—further, that of things which are without result, some exist, some do not. This also you deny.

1.8.3.1

Atītaṃ ekaccaṃ atthi ekaccaṃ natthīti?

Does some of the past exist, and some not exist?

Again, referring to your declaration that the past exists in part, which of the past exists, which not?

1.8.3.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Again, referring to your declaration that the past exists in part, which of the past exists, which not?

1.8.3.3

Kiṃ atthi kiṃ natthīti?

What exists and what does not exist?

Again, referring to your declaration that the past exists in part, which of the past exists, which not?

1.8.3.4

Atītā avipakkavipākā dhammā—

Past phenomena whose result has not ripened—

Kassapika: Those past things of which the effect is not matured exist; those past things of which the effect is matured do not.

1.8.3.5

te atthi;

they exist;

Kassapika: Those past things of which the effect is not matured exist; those past things of which the effect is matured do not.

1.8.3.6

atītā vipakkavipākā dhammā—

past phenomena whose result has ripened—

Kassapika: Those past things of which the effect is not matured exist; those past things of which the effect is matured do not.

1.8.3.7

te natthīti.

they do not exist.

Kassapika: Those past things of which the effect is not matured exist; those past things of which the effect is matured do not.

1.8.3.8

Atītā avipakkavipākā dhammā—

Past phenomena whose result has not ripened—

Theravādin: But if you admit the existence of the former part, you must also admit the existence of the latter part, and also the existence of those past things that are without effect. Again, if those past things of which the effect is matured are non-existent, no less are those past things of which the effect is not matured existent, as well as those things which are without effect. Once more, you say, those past things the effect of which is not matured exist, but might not such past things be said to have ceased? You admit this? But you cannot say that a thing both is and has ceased.

1.8.3.9

te atthīti?

do they exist?

1.8.3.10

Āmantā.

Yes.

1.8.3.11

Atītā vipakkavipākā dhammā—

Past phenomena whose result has ripened—

1.8.3.12

te atthīti?

do they exist?

1.8.3.13

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

1.8.3.14

atītā avipakkavipākā dhammā—

past phenomena whose result has not ripened—

1.8.3.15

te atthīti?

do they exist?

1.8.3.16

Āmantā.

Yes.

1.8.3.17

Atītā avipākā dhammā—

Past phenomena without result—

1.8.3.18

te atthīti?

do they exist?

1.8.3.19

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

1.8.4.1

Atītā vipakkavipākā dhammā—

Past phenomena whose result has ripened—

1.8.4.2

te natthīti?

do they not exist?

1.8.4.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

1.8.4.4

Atītā avipakkavipākā dhammā—

Past phenomena whose result has not ripened—

1.8.4.5

te natthīti?

do they not exist?

1.8.4.6

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

1.8.5.1

Atītā avipākā dhammā—

Past phenomena without result—

1.8.5.2

te natthīti?

do they not exist?

1.8.5.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

1.8.5.4

Atītā avipakkavipākā dhammā—

Past phenomena whose result has not ripened—

1.8.5.5

te natthīti?

do they not exist?

1.8.5.6

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

1.8.6.1

Atītā avipakkavipākā dhammā—

Past phenomena whose result has not ripened—

1.8.6.2

te atthīti?

do they exist?

1.8.6.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

1.8.6.4

Nanu atītā avipakkavipākā dhammā niruddhāti?

Have past phenomena whose result has not ripened ceased?

1.8.6.5

Āmantā.

Yes.

1.8.6.6

Hañci atītā avipakkavipākā dhammā niruddhā, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If past phenomena whose result has not ripened have ceased, then indeed, sir, it should not be said:

1.8.6.7

“atītā avipakkavipākā dhammā—

“Past phenomena whose result has not ripened—

1.8.6.8

te atthī”ti.

they exist.”

1.8.7.1

Atītā avipakkavipākā dhammā niruddhā—

Past phenomena whose result has not ripened have ceased—

Do you contend that those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? Then must you also admit that those past things, the effect of which is matured and which have ceased, exist, as well as those past things which are without effect—that these, too, exist.

1.8.7.2

te atthīti?

do they exist?

Do you contend that those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? Then must you also admit that those past things, the effect of which is matured and which have ceased, exist, as well as those past things which are without effect—that these, too, exist.

1.8.7.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

Do you contend that those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? Then must you also admit that those past things, the effect of which is matured and which have ceased, exist, as well as those past things which are without effect—that these, too, exist.

1.8.7.4

Atītā vipakkavipākā dhammā niruddhā—

Past phenomena whose result has ripened have ceased—

Do you contend that those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? Then must you also admit that those past things, the effect of which is matured and which have ceased, exist, as well as those past things which are without effect—that these, too, exist.

1.8.7.5

te atthīti?

do they exist?

Do you contend that those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? Then must you also admit that those past things, the effect of which is matured and which have ceased, exist, as well as those past things which are without effect—that these, too, exist.

1.8.7.6

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Do you contend that those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? Then must you also admit that those past things, the effect of which is matured and which have ceased, exist, as well as those past things which are without effect—that these, too, exist.

1.8.7.7

atītā avipakkavipākā dhammā niruddhā—

past phenomena whose result has not ripened have ceased—

Do you contend that those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? Then must you also admit that those past things, the effect of which is matured and which have ceased, exist, as well as those past things which are without effect—that these, too, exist.

1.8.7.8

te atthīti?

do they exist?

Do you contend that those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? Then must you also admit that those past things, the effect of which is matured and which have ceased, exist, as well as those past things which are without effect—that these, too, exist.

1.8.7.9

Āmantā.

Yes.

Do you contend that those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? Then must you also admit that those past things, the effect of which is matured and which have ceased, exist, as well as those past things which are without effect—that these, too, exist.

1.8.7.10

Atītā avipākā dhammā niruddhā—

Past phenomena without result have ceased—

Do you contend that those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? Then must you also admit that those past things, the effect of which is matured and which have ceased, exist, as well as those past things which are without effect—that these, too, exist.

1.8.7.11

te atthīti?

do they exist?

Do you contend that those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? Then must you also admit that those past things, the effect of which is matured and which have ceased, exist, as well as those past things which are without effect—that these, too, exist.

1.8.7.12

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

Do you contend that those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? Then must you also admit that those past things, the effect of which is matured and which have ceased, exist, as well as those past things which are without effect—that these, too, exist.

1.8.8.1

Atītā vipakkavipākā dhammā niruddhā—

Past phenomena whose result has ripened have ceased—

If, on the other hand, you say that those past things, the effect of which is matured, and which have ceased, do not exist, then must you also admit that those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, and which have ceased, do not exist contradicting what you have previously affirmed, as well as those things which are without effect.

1.8.8.2

te natthīti?

Do they not exist?

1.8.8.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

1.8.8.4

Atītā avipakkavipākā dhammā niruddhā—

Past phenomena whose fruition has not ripened have ceased—

1.8.8.5

te natthīti?

do they not exist?

1.8.8.6

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

1.8.9.1

Atītā avipākā dhammā niruddhā—

Past phenomena without fruition have ceased—

1.8.9.2

te natthīti?

do they not exist?

1.8.9.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

1.8.9.4

Atītā avipakkavipākā dhammā niruddhā—

Past phenomena whose fruition has not ripened have ceased—

1.8.9.5

te natthīti?

do they not exist?

1.8.9.6

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

1.8.10.1

Atītā avipakkavipākā dhammā niruddhā—

Past phenomena whose fruition has not ripened have ceased—

Or do those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? And are those past things, the effect of which is matured, but which have ceased, non-existent? Then you hereby affirm also that some of those past things, the effect of which is in part matured, and in part not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist, while some do not exist—which you deny.

1.8.10.2

te atthīti?

do they exist?

Or do those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? And are those past things, the effect of which is matured, but which have ceased, non-existent? Then you hereby affirm also that some of those past things, the effect of which is in part matured, and in part not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist, while some do not exist—which you deny.

1.8.10.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

Or do those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? And are those past things, the effect of which is matured, but which have ceased, non-existent? Then you hereby affirm also that some of those past things, the effect of which is in part matured, and in part not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist, while some do not exist—which you deny.

1.8.10.4

Atītā vipakkavipākā dhammā niruddhā—

Past phenomena whose fruition has ripened have ceased—

Or do those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? And are those past things, the effect of which is matured, but which have ceased, non-existent? Then you hereby affirm also that some of those past things, the effect of which is in part matured, and in part not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist, while some do not exist—which you deny.

1.8.10.5

te natthīti?

do they not exist?

Or do those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? And are those past things, the effect of which is matured, but which have ceased, non-existent? Then you hereby affirm also that some of those past things, the effect of which is in part matured, and in part not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist, while some do not exist—which you deny.

1.8.10.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

Or do those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? And are those past things, the effect of which is matured, but which have ceased, non-existent? Then you hereby affirm also that some of those past things, the effect of which is in part matured, and in part not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist, while some do not exist—which you deny.

1.8.10.7

Atītā ekadesaṃ vipakkavipākā dhammā ekadesaṃ avipakkavipākā dhammā niruddhā—

Past phenomena whose fruition has partly ripened and partly not ripened have ceased—

Or do those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? And are those past things, the effect of which is matured, but which have ceased, non-existent? Then you hereby affirm also that some of those past things, the effect of which is in part matured, and in part not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist, while some do not exist—which you deny.

1.8.10.8

te ekacce atthi ekacce natthīti?

do some exist and some not exist?

Or do those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? And are those past things, the effect of which is matured, but which have ceased, non-existent? Then you hereby affirm also that some of those past things, the effect of which is in part matured, and in part not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist, while some do not exist—which you deny.

1.8.10.9

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

Or do those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist? And are those past things, the effect of which is matured, but which have ceased, non-existent? Then you hereby affirm also that some of those past things, the effect of which is in part matured, and in part not yet matured, but which have ceased, exist, while some do not exist—which you deny.

1.8.11.1

Na vattabbaṃ—

Should it not be said—

Kassapika: Is it then wrong to say “those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, exist”?

1.8.11.2

“atītā avipakkavipākā dhammā—

“Past phenomena whose fruition has not ripened—

Kassapika: Is it then wrong to say “those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, exist”?

1.8.11.3

te atthī”ti?

they exist”?

Kassapika: Is it then wrong to say “those past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, exist”?

1.8.11.4

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: Yes.

1.8.11.5

Nanu atītā avipakkavipākā dhammā vipaccissantīti?

Will not past phenomena whose fruition has not ripened ripen?

Kassapika: Is it not a fact that past things, the effect of which is not yet matured, will become mature as to effect?

1.8.11.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: Yes.

1.8.11.7

Hañci atītā avipakkavipākā dhammā vipaccissanti, tena vata re vattabbe—

If past phenomena whose fruition has not ripened will ripen, then indeed you should say—

Kassapika: If that be so, then it is surely not wrong to say that past things yet immature in their effect exist.

1.8.11.8

“atītā avipakkavipākā dhammā—

“Past phenomena whose fruition has not ripened—

Kassapika: If that be so, then it is surely not wrong to say that past things yet immature in their effect exist.

1.8.11.9

te atthī”ti.

they exist.”

Kassapika: If that be so, then it is surely not wrong to say that past things yet immature in their effect exist.

1.8.12.1

Atītā avipakkavipākā dhammā vipaccissantīti katvā te atthīti?

Do they exist because past phenomena whose fruition has not ripened will ripen?

Theravādin: Granting that such past things will become mature as to their effect, can they be said to exist? Yes, you say; but granting that they will in this respect mature, can they be said to be present? If you admit this, then, granting that present things will perish, are they non-existent?

1.8.12.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: Granting that such past things will become mature as to their effect, can they be said to exist? Yes, you say; but granting that they will in this respect mature, can they be said to be present? If you admit this, then, granting that present things will perish, are they non-existent?

1.8.12.3

Vipaccissantīti katvā paccuppannāti?

Because they will ripen, are they present?

Theravādin: Granting that such past things will become mature as to their effect, can they be said to exist? Yes, you say; but granting that they will in this respect mature, can they be said to be present? If you admit this, then, granting that present things will perish, are they non-existent?

1.8.12.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

Theravādin: Granting that such past things will become mature as to their effect, can they be said to exist? Yes, you say; but granting that they will in this respect mature, can they be said to be present? If you admit this, then, granting that present things will perish, are they non-existent?

1.8.12.5

vipaccissantīti katvā paccuppannāti?

Because they will ripen, are they present?

Theravādin: Granting that such past things will become mature as to their effect, can they be said to exist? Yes, you say; but granting that they will in this respect mature, can they be said to be present? If you admit this, then, granting that present things will perish, are they non-existent?

1.8.12.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: Granting that such past things will become mature as to their effect, can they be said to exist? Yes, you say; but granting that they will in this respect mature, can they be said to be present? If you admit this, then, granting that present things will perish, are they non-existent?

1.8.12.7

Paccuppannā dhammā nirujjhissantīti katvā te natthīti?

Because present phenomena will cease, do they not exist?

Theravādin: Granting that such past things will become mature as to their effect, can they be said to exist? Yes, you say; but granting that they will in this respect mature, can they be said to be present? If you admit this, then, granting that present things will perish, are they non-existent?

1.8.12.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

Theravādin: Granting that such past things will become mature as to their effect, can they be said to exist? Yes, you say; but granting that they will in this respect mature, can they be said to be present? If you admit this, then, granting that present things will perish, are they non-existent?

1.8.13.1

Anāgataṃ atthīti?

Does the future exist?

(i.) To the question “Does the future exist”? you reply “some of it exists, some does not”. You must then admit in equivalent terms that some of it is born, produced, has happened, appeared, some of it not. Yet you deny this. Granting your declaration, do some things that have been inevitably determined exist, and some not? You are committed to this, and also to this: that some future things which are not inevitably determined exist, and some not.

1.8.13.2

Ekaccaṃ atthi, ekaccaṃ natthīti.

Some exists, some does not exist.

1.8.13.3

Ekaccaṃ jātaṃ, ekaccaṃ ajātaṃ;

Is some born, some unborn;

1.8.13.4

ekaccaṃ sañjātaṃ, ekaccaṃ asañjātaṃ;

some originated, some unoriginated;

1.8.13.5

ekaccaṃ nibbattaṃ, ekaccaṃ anibbattaṃ;

some produced, some unproduced;

1.8.13.6

ekaccaṃ pātubhūtaṃ, ekaccaṃ apātubhūtanti?

some manifested, some unmanifested?

1.8.13.7

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

1.8.14.1

Anāgataṃ ekaccaṃ atthi, ekaccaṃ natthīti?

Does some of the future exist, and some not exist?

1.8.14.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

1.8.14.3

Anāgatā uppādino dhammā ekacce atthi, ekacce natthīti?

Do some future phenomena that are liable to arise exist, and some not exist?

1.8.14.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

1.8.14.5

anāgataṃ ekaccaṃ atthi, ekaccaṃ natthīti?

Does some of the future exist, and some not exist?

1.8.14.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

1.8.14.7

Anāgatā anuppādino dhammā ekacce atthi, ekacce natthīti?

Do some future phenomena that are not liable to arise exist, and some not exist?

1.8.14.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

1.8.15.1

Anāgataṃ ekaccaṃ atthi, ekaccaṃ natthīti?

Does some of the future exist, and some not exist?

Referring to your declaration (ii.): which of the future exists, which does not exist? You reply: “Those future things which are inevitably determined exist, those that are not so determined do not”. You deny then that those future things not inevitably determined do exist, though you are really committed to this by the former half of your reply. Again, if future things not inevitably determined are non-existent, then also future things which are inevitably determined are also non-existent.

1.8.15.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Referring to your declaration (ii.): which of the future exists, which does not exist? You reply: “Those future things which are inevitably determined exist, those that are not so determined do not”. You deny then that those future things not inevitably determined do exist, though you are really committed to this by the former half of your reply. Again, if future things not inevitably determined are non-existent, then also future things which are inevitably determined are also non-existent.

1.8.15.3

Kiṃ atthi, kiṃ natthīti?

What exists, and what does not exist?

Referring to your declaration (ii.): which of the future exists, which does not exist? You reply: “Those future things which are inevitably determined exist, those that are not so determined do not”. You deny then that those future things not inevitably determined do exist, though you are really committed to this by the former half of your reply. Again, if future things not inevitably determined are non-existent, then also future things which are inevitably determined are also non-existent.

1.8.15.4

Anāgatā uppādino dhammā—

Future phenomena that are liable to arise—

Referring to your declaration (ii.): which of the future exists, which does not exist? You reply: “Those future things which are inevitably determined exist, those that are not so determined do not”. You deny then that those future things not inevitably determined do exist, though you are really committed to this by the former half of your reply. Again, if future things not inevitably determined are non-existent, then also future things which are inevitably determined are also non-existent.

1.8.15.5

te atthi;

they exist;

Referring to your declaration (ii.): which of the future exists, which does not exist? You reply: “Those future things which are inevitably determined exist, those that are not so determined do not”. You deny then that those future things not inevitably determined do exist, though you are really committed to this by the former half of your reply. Again, if future things not inevitably determined are non-existent, then also future things which are inevitably determined are also non-existent.

1.8.15.6

anāgatā anuppādino dhammā—

future phenomena that are not liable to arise—

Referring to your declaration (ii.): which of the future exists, which does not exist? You reply: “Those future things which are inevitably determined exist, those that are not so determined do not”. You deny then that those future things not inevitably determined do exist, though you are really committed to this by the former half of your reply. Again, if future things not inevitably determined are non-existent, then also future things which are inevitably determined are also non-existent.

1.8.15.7

te natthīti.

they do not exist.

Referring to your declaration (ii.): which of the future exists, which does not exist? You reply: “Those future things which are inevitably determined exist, those that are not so determined do not”. You deny then that those future things not inevitably determined do exist, though you are really committed to this by the former half of your reply. Again, if future things not inevitably determined are non-existent, then also future things which are inevitably determined are also non-existent.

1.8.15.8

Anāgatā uppādino dhammā—

Future phenomena that are liable to arise—

Referring to your declaration (ii.): which of the future exists, which does not exist? You reply: “Those future things which are inevitably determined exist, those that are not so determined do not”. You deny then that those future things not inevitably determined do exist, though you are really committed to this by the former half of your reply. Again, if future things not inevitably determined are non-existent, then also future things which are inevitably determined are also non-existent.

1.8.15.9

te atthīti?

do they exist?

Referring to your declaration (ii.): which of the future exists, which does not exist? You reply: “Those future things which are inevitably determined exist, those that are not so determined do not”. You deny then that those future things not inevitably determined do exist, though you are really committed to this by the former half of your reply. Again, if future things not inevitably determined are non-existent, then also future things which are inevitably determined are also non-existent.

1.8.15.10

Āmantā.

Yes.

Referring to your declaration (ii.): which of the future exists, which does not exist? You reply: “Those future things which are inevitably determined exist, those that are not so determined do not”. You deny then that those future things not inevitably determined do exist, though you are really committed to this by the former half of your reply. Again, if future things not inevitably determined are non-existent, then also future things which are inevitably determined are also non-existent.

1.8.15.11

Anāgatā anuppādino dhammā—

As for future phenomena that are not to arise—

Referring to your declaration (ii.): which of the future exists, which does not exist? You reply: “Those future things which are inevitably determined exist, those that are not so determined do not”. You deny then that those future things not inevitably determined do exist, though you are really committed to this by the former half of your reply. Again, if future things not inevitably determined are non-existent, then also future things which are inevitably determined are also non-existent.

1.8.15.12

te atthīti?

do they exist?

Referring to your declaration (ii.): which of the future exists, which does not exist? You reply: “Those future things which are inevitably determined exist, those that are not so determined do not”. You deny then that those future things not inevitably determined do exist, though you are really committed to this by the former half of your reply. Again, if future things not inevitably determined are non-existent, then also future things which are inevitably determined are also non-existent.

1.8.15.13

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Referring to your declaration (ii.): which of the future exists, which does not exist? You reply: “Those future things which are inevitably determined exist, those that are not so determined do not”. You deny then that those future things not inevitably determined do exist, though you are really committed to this by the former half of your reply. Again, if future things not inevitably determined are non-existent, then also future things which are inevitably determined are also non-existent.

1.8.15.14

anāgatā anuppādino dhammā—

As for future phenomena that are not to arise—

Referring to your declaration (ii.): which of the future exists, which does not exist? You reply: “Those future things which are inevitably determined exist, those that are not so determined do not”. You deny then that those future things not inevitably determined do exist, though you are really committed to this by the former half of your reply. Again, if future things not inevitably determined are non-existent, then also future things which are inevitably determined are also non-existent.

1.8.15.15

te natthīti?

do they not exist?

Referring to your declaration (ii.): which of the future exists, which does not exist? You reply: “Those future things which are inevitably determined exist, those that are not so determined do not”. You deny then that those future things not inevitably determined do exist, though you are really committed to this by the former half of your reply. Again, if future things not inevitably determined are non-existent, then also future things which are inevitably determined are also non-existent.

1.8.15.16

Āmantā.

Yes.

Referring to your declaration (ii.): which of the future exists, which does not exist? You reply: “Those future things which are inevitably determined exist, those that are not so determined do not”. You deny then that those future things not inevitably determined do exist, though you are really committed to this by the former half of your reply. Again, if future things not inevitably determined are non-existent, then also future things which are inevitably determined are also non-existent.

1.8.15.17

Anāgatā uppādino dhammā—

As for future phenomena that are to arise—

Referring to your declaration (ii.): which of the future exists, which does not exist? You reply: “Those future things which are inevitably determined exist, those that are not so determined do not”. You deny then that those future things not inevitably determined do exist, though you are really committed to this by the former half of your reply. Again, if future things not inevitably determined are non-existent, then also future things which are inevitably determined are also non-existent.

1.8.15.18

te natthīti?

do they not exist?

Referring to your declaration (ii.): which of the future exists, which does not exist? You reply: “Those future things which are inevitably determined exist, those that are not so determined do not”. You deny then that those future things not inevitably determined do exist, though you are really committed to this by the former half of your reply. Again, if future things not inevitably determined are non-existent, then also future things which are inevitably determined are also non-existent.

1.8.15.19

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

Referring to your declaration (ii.): which of the future exists, which does not exist? You reply: “Those future things which are inevitably determined exist, those that are not so determined do not”. You deny then that those future things not inevitably determined do exist, though you are really committed to this by the former half of your reply. Again, if future things not inevitably determined are non-existent, then also future things which are inevitably determined are also non-existent.

1.8.16.1

Anāgatā uppādino dhammā—

As for future phenomena that are to arise—

With regard to those future things inevitably determined which you say “exist”, would you not admit that such future things have not been born? Yes? Then how can you say that things not yet born exist?

1.8.16.2

te atthīti?

do they exist?

With regard to those future things inevitably determined which you say “exist”, would you not admit that such future things have not been born? Yes? Then how can you say that things not yet born exist?

1.8.16.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

With regard to those future things inevitably determined which you say “exist”, would you not admit that such future things have not been born? Yes? Then how can you say that things not yet born exist?

1.8.16.4

Nanu anāgatā uppādino dhammā ajātāti?

Are not future phenomena that are to arise unborn?

With regard to those future things inevitably determined which you say “exist”, would you not admit that such future things have not been born? Yes? Then how can you say that things not yet born exist?

1.8.16.5

Āmantā.

Yes.

With regard to those future things inevitably determined which you say “exist”, would you not admit that such future things have not been born? Yes? Then how can you say that things not yet born exist?

1.8.16.6

Hañci anāgatā uppādino dhammā ajātā, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If future phenomena that are to arise are unborn, then indeed you should not say—

With regard to those future things inevitably determined which you say “exist”, would you not admit that such future things have not been born? Yes? Then how can you say that things not yet born exist?

1.8.16.7

“anāgatā uppādino dhammā—

“As for future phenomena that are to arise—

With regard to those future things inevitably determined which you say “exist”, would you not admit that such future things have not been born? Yes? Then how can you say that things not yet born exist?

1.8.16.8

te atthī”ti.

they exist.”

With regard to those future things inevitably determined which you say “exist”, would you not admit that such future things have not been born? Yes? Then how can you say that things not yet born exist?

1.8.17.1

Anāgatā uppādino dhammā ajātā—

As for future phenomena that are to arise, which are unborn—

Or, if inevitably determined future things, which are not yet born, do exist, then future things not so determined, which are not yet born, exist. Or again, if future things not inevitably determined, which are not yet born, are non-existent, then you must say no less of similar but inevitably determined things.

1.8.17.2

te atthīti?

do they exist?

Or, if inevitably determined future things, which are not yet born, do exist, then future things not so determined, which are not yet born, exist. Or again, if future things not inevitably determined, which are not yet born, are non-existent, then you must say no less of similar but inevitably determined things.

1.8.17.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

Or, if inevitably determined future things, which are not yet born, do exist, then future things not so determined, which are not yet born, exist. Or again, if future things not inevitably determined, which are not yet born, are non-existent, then you must say no less of similar but inevitably determined things.

1.8.17.4

Anāgatā anuppādino dhammā ajātā—

As for future phenomena that are not to arise, which are unborn—

Or, if inevitably determined future things, which are not yet born, do exist, then future things not so determined, which are not yet born, exist. Or again, if future things not inevitably determined, which are not yet born, are non-existent, then you must say no less of similar but inevitably determined things.

1.8.17.5

te atthīti?

do they exist?

Or, if inevitably determined future things, which are not yet born, do exist, then future things not so determined, which are not yet born, exist. Or again, if future things not inevitably determined, which are not yet born, are non-existent, then you must say no less of similar but inevitably determined things.

1.8.17.6

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Or, if inevitably determined future things, which are not yet born, do exist, then future things not so determined, which are not yet born, exist. Or again, if future things not inevitably determined, which are not yet born, are non-existent, then you must say no less of similar but inevitably determined things.

1.8.17.7

anāgatā anuppādino dhammā ajātā—

As for future phenomena that are not to arise, which are unborn—

Or, if inevitably determined future things, which are not yet born, do exist, then future things not so determined, which are not yet born, exist. Or again, if future things not inevitably determined, which are not yet born, are non-existent, then you must say no less of similar but inevitably determined things.

1.8.17.8

te natthīti?

do they not exist?

Or, if inevitably determined future things, which are not yet born, do exist, then future things not so determined, which are not yet born, exist. Or again, if future things not inevitably determined, which are not yet born, are non-existent, then you must say no less of similar but inevitably determined things.

1.8.17.9

Āmantā.

Yes.

Or, if inevitably determined future things, which are not yet born, do exist, then future things not so determined, which are not yet born, exist. Or again, if future things not inevitably determined, which are not yet born, are non-existent, then you must say no less of similar but inevitably determined things.

1.8.17.10

Anāgatā uppādino dhammā ajātā—

As for future phenomena that are to arise, which are unborn—

Or, if inevitably determined future things, which are not yet born, do exist, then future things not so determined, which are not yet born, exist. Or again, if future things not inevitably determined, which are not yet born, are non-existent, then you must say no less of similar but inevitably determined things.

1.8.17.11

te natthīti?

do they not exist?

Or, if inevitably determined future things, which are not yet born, do exist, then future things not so determined, which are not yet born, exist. Or again, if future things not inevitably determined, which are not yet born, are non-existent, then you must say no less of similar but inevitably determined things.

1.8.17.12

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

Or, if inevitably determined future things, which are not yet born, do exist, then future things not so determined, which are not yet born, exist. Or again, if future things not inevitably determined, which are not yet born, are non-existent, then you must say no less of similar but inevitably determined things.

1.8.18.1

Na vattabbaṃ—

Should it not be said—

Kassapika: Then is it wrong to say “those future things which are inevitably determined exist”?

1.8.18.2

“anāgatā uppādino dhammā—

“As for future phenomena that are to arise—

Kassapika: Then is it wrong to say “those future things which are inevitably determined exist”?

1.8.18.3

te atthī”ti?

they exist”?

Kassapika: Then is it wrong to say “those future things which are inevitably determined exist”?

1.8.18.4

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: Yes.

1.8.18.5

Nanu anāgatā uppādino dhammā uppajjissantīti?

Will not future phenomena that are to arise, arise?

Kassapika: But will not future things which are inevitably determined happen?

1.8.18.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: Yes.

1.8.18.7

Hañci anāgatā uppādino dhammā uppajjissanti, tena vata re vattabbe—

If future phenomena that are to arise will arise, then indeed you should say—

Kassapika: Surely then things inevitably determined exist.

1.8.18.8

“anāgatā uppādino dhammā—

“As for future phenomena that are to arise—

Kassapika: Surely then things inevitably determined exist.

1.8.18.9

te atthī”ti.

they exist.”

Kassapika: Surely then things inevitably determined exist.

1.8.19.1

Anāgatā uppādino dhammā uppajjissantīti katvā te atthīti?

Do future phenomena that are to arise exist because they will arise?

Theravādin: Granting that future things, if inevitably determined, will happen, do they exist?

1.8.19.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Kassapika: Yes.

1.8.19.3

Uppajjissantīti katvā paccuppannāti?

Are they present because they will arise?

Theravādin: Granting they will happen, are they present?

1.8.19.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Kassapika: No the future is not the present.

Theravādin: I repeat my question.

1.8.19.5

uppajjissantīti katvā paccuppannāti?

Are they present because they will arise?

Kassapika: Yes since, if they are existent, they are present.

1.8.19.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

Kassapika: Yes since, if they are existent, they are present.

1.8.19.7

Paccuppannā dhammā nirujjhissantīti katvā te natthīti?

Do present phenomena not exist because they will cease?

Theravādin: And granting that present things will cease, are they non-existent?

1.8.19.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

Kassapika: Nay, that cannot truly be said.

Theravādin: But you have already admitted this.

1.8.19.9

Ekaccaṃ atthītikathā niṭṭhitā.

The discussion on “Some exists” is finished.