Kathavatthu 17.3: Sabbamidaṅkammatotikathā

17.3.1.1

Sabbamidaṃ kammatoti?

Is all this due to action?

Controverted Point: That all this is from karma.

17.3.1.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Controverted Point: That all this is from karma.

17.3.1.3

Kammampi kammatoti?

Is action too due to action?

Theravādin: Do you then include karma itself as due to karma? And do you imply that all this is simply the result of bygone causes? You are committed here to what you must deny.

17.3.1.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Theravādin: Do you then include karma itself as due to karma? And do you imply that all this is simply the result of bygone causes? You are committed here to what you must deny.

17.3.1.5

sabbamidaṃ kammatoti?

Is all this due to action?

Theravādin: Do you then include karma itself as due to karma? And do you imply that all this is simply the result of bygone causes? You are committed here to what you must deny.

17.3.1.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: Do you then include karma itself as due to karma? And do you imply that all this is simply the result of bygone causes? You are committed here to what you must deny.

17.3.1.7

Sabbamidaṃ pubbekatahetūti?

Is all this caused by what was done in the past?

Theravādin: Do you then include karma itself as due to karma? And do you imply that all this is simply the result of bygone causes? You are committed here to what you must deny.

17.3.1.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Theravādin: Do you then include karma itself as due to karma? And do you imply that all this is simply the result of bygone causes? You are committed here to what you must deny.

17.3.1.9

sabbamidaṃ kammatoti?

Is all this due to kamma?

Theravādin: Do you then include karma itself as due to karma? And do you imply that all this is simply the result of bygone causes? You are committed here to what you must deny.

17.3.1.10

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: Do you then include karma itself as due to karma? And do you imply that all this is simply the result of bygone causes? You are committed here to what you must deny.

17.3.1.11

Sabbamidaṃ kammavipākatoti?

Is all this due to the result of kamma?

Again, you imply, by your proposition, that all this is not so much from karma as from the result of still earlier karma. If you deny, you deny your first proposition. If you assent, you imply that one may commit murder through not karma, but the result of karma. You assent? Then murder, though a result, is itself productive of karmic result? You assent? Then the result of karma is productive of result? You deny? Then it is barren of result, and murder must a fortiori be barren of karmic result … .

17.3.1.12

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

17.3.2.1

Sabbamidaṃ kammavipākatoti?

Is all this due to the result of kamma?

17.3.2.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

17.3.2.3

Kammavipākena pāṇaṃ haneyyāti?

Could one kill a living being because of the result of kamma?

17.3.2.4

Āmantā.

Yes.

17.3.2.5

Pāṇātipāto saphaloti?

Does taking life bear fruit?

17.3.2.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

17.3.2.7

Kammavipāko saphaloti?

Does the result of kamma bear fruit?

17.3.2.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

17.3.2.9

kammavipāko aphaloti?

Is the result of kamma fruitless?

17.3.2.10

Āmantā.

Yes.

17.3.2.11

Pāṇātipāto aphaloti?

Is taking life fruitless?

17.3.2.12

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

17.3.3.1

Kammavipākena adinnaṃ ādiyeyya …pe…

Could one take what is not given because of the result of kamma? …pe…

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.2

musā bhaṇeyya …

Could one speak falsehood? …

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.3

pisuṇaṃ bhaṇeyya …

Could one speak maliciously? …

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.4

pharusaṃ bhaṇeyya …

Could one speak harshly? …

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.5

samphaṃ palapeyya …

Could one indulge in idle chatter? …

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.6

sandhiṃ chindeyya …

Could one commit burglary? …

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.7

nillopaṃ hareyya …

Could one plunder? …

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.8

ekāgārikaṃ kareyya …

Could one isolate a house [to rob it]? …

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.9

paripanthe tiṭṭheyya …

Could one lie in wait by the highway? …

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.10

paradāraṃ gaccheyya …

Could one commit adultery? …

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.11

gāmaghātakaṃ kareyya …

Could one sack villages? …

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.12

nigamaghātakaṃ kareyya …

Could one sack towns? …

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.13

kammavipākena dānaṃ dadeyya …

Could one give a gift because of the result of kamma? …

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.14

cīvaraṃ dadeyya …

Could one give a robe? …

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.15

piṇḍapātaṃ dadeyya …

Could one give almsfood? …

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.16

senāsanaṃ dadeyya …

Could one give a lodging? …

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.17

gilānapaccayabhesajjaparikkhāraṃ dadeyyāti?

Could one give medicinal requisites for the sick?

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.18

Āmantā.

Yes.

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.19

Gilānapaccayabhesajjaparikkhāro saphaloti?

Does giving medicinal requisites for the sick bear fruit?

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.20

Āmantā.

Yes.

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.21

Kammavipāko saphaloti?

Does the result of kamma bear fruit?

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.22

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.23

kammavipāko aphaloti?

Is the result of kamma fruitless?

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.24

Āmantā.

Yes.

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.25

Gilānapaccayabhesajjaparikkhāro aphaloti?

Is giving medicinal requisites for the sick fruitless?

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.3.26

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

This argument applies equally to other immoral acts—to theft, to wicked speech—lying, abuse, slander, and idle talk—to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adultery, destroying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral acts: to giving gifts—e.g., giving the four necessaries to the religious. If any of these is done as the result of karma, and themselves produce karmic result, then you are on the horns of this dilemma: that either result-of-karma can itself produce effects which is heterodox, or any good or bad deed has no karmic result which is heterodox… .

17.3.4.1

Na vattabbaṃ—

Should it not be said:

Rājagirika, Siddhatthika: But was it not said by the Exalted One:

17.3.4.2

“sabbamidaṃ kammato”ti?

“All this is due to kamma”?

Rājagirika, Siddhatthika: But was it not said by the Exalted One:

17.3.4.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

Rājagirika, Siddhatthika: But was it not said by the Exalted One:

17.3.4.4

Nanu vuttaṃ bhagavatā—

Was it not said by the Blessed One:

Rājagirika, Siddhatthika: But was it not said by the Exalted One:

17.3.5.1

“Kammunā vattatī loko,

“By kamma the world turns,

“'Tis karma makes the world go round,
Karma rolls on the lives of men.
All beings are to karma bound
As linch-pin is to chariot-wheel”.

17.3.5.2

kammunā vattatī pajā;

by kamma generation turns;

“'Tis karma makes the world go round,
Karma rolls on the lives of men.
All beings are to karma bound
As linch-pin is to chariot-wheel”.

17.3.5.3

Kammanibandhanā sattā,

Beings are bound by kamma,

“'Tis karma makes the world go round,
Karma rolls on the lives of men.
All beings are to karma bound
As linch-pin is to chariot-wheel”.

17.3.5.4

rathassāṇīva yāyato.

Like the pin of a rolling chariot.

“'Tis karma makes the world go round,
Karma rolls on the lives of men.
All beings are to karma bound
As linch-pin is to chariot-wheel”.

17.3.6.1

Kammena kittiṃ labhate pasaṃsaṃ,

Through kamma one gains fame and praise,

“By karma praise and fame are won.
By karma too, birth, death and bonds.
Who that this karma's divers modes discerns,
Can say “there is no karma in the world”?

17.3.6.2

Kammena jāniñca vadhañca bandhaṃ;

Through kamma ruin, slaughter, and bondage;

17.3.6.3

Taṃ kammaṃ nānākaraṇaṃ viditvā,

Having known that kamma causes diversity,

17.3.6.4

Kasmā vade natthi kammanti loke”ti.

Why do you say: ‘There is no kamma in the world’?”

17.3.7.1

Attheva suttantoti?

Does this discourse really exist?

17.3.7.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

17.3.7.3

Tena hi “sabbamidaṃ kammato”ti.

Therefore [it is true that] “all this is due to kamma.”

Hence surely all this is due to karma?

17.3.7.4

Sabbamidaṃ kammatotikathā niṭṭhitā.

The discussion of “all this is due to kamma” is finished.