Kathavatthu 5.5: Paṭisambhidākathā

5.5.1.1

Sabbaṃ ñāṇaṃ paṭisambhidāti?

Is all knowledge an analytical description?

Controverted Point: That all knowledge is analytic.

5.5.1.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Controverted Point: That all knowledge is analytic.

5.5.1.3

Sammutiñāṇaṃ paṭisambhidāti?

Is conventional knowledge an analytical description?

Theravādin: Then you must admit that popular knowledge is analytic—which you deny. For if you assent, then all who have popular, conventional knowledge, have also acquired analytic insight—which you deny. The same argument holds good if “knowledge in discerning the thought of another” be substituted for “popular … knowledge”.

5.5.1.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

Theravādin: Then you must admit that popular knowledge is analytic—which you deny. For if you assent, then all who have popular, conventional knowledge, have also acquired analytic insight—which you deny. The same argument holds good if “knowledge in discerning the thought of another” be substituted for “popular … knowledge”.

5.5.1.5

sammutiñāṇaṃ paṭisambhidāti?

Is conventional knowledge an analytical description?

Theravādin: Then you must admit that popular knowledge is analytic—which you deny. For if you assent, then all who have popular, conventional knowledge, have also acquired analytic insight—which you deny. The same argument holds good if “knowledge in discerning the thought of another” be substituted for “popular … knowledge”.

5.5.1.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: Then you must admit that popular knowledge is analytic—which you deny. For if you assent, then all who have popular, conventional knowledge, have also acquired analytic insight—which you deny. The same argument holds good if “knowledge in discerning the thought of another” be substituted for “popular … knowledge”.

5.5.1.7

Ye keci sammutiṃ jānanti, sabbe te paṭisambhidāpattāti?

Do all those who know convention attain the analytical descriptions?

Theravādin: Then you must admit that popular knowledge is analytic—which you deny. For if you assent, then all who have popular, conventional knowledge, have also acquired analytic insight—which you deny. The same argument holds good if “knowledge in discerning the thought of another” be substituted for “popular … knowledge”.

5.5.1.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

Theravādin: Then you must admit that popular knowledge is analytic—which you deny. For if you assent, then all who have popular, conventional knowledge, have also acquired analytic insight—which you deny. The same argument holds good if “knowledge in discerning the thought of another” be substituted for “popular … knowledge”.

5.5.1.9

sabbaṃ ñāṇaṃ paṭisambhidāti?

Is all knowledge an analytical description?

Theravādin: Then you must admit that popular knowledge is analytic—which you deny. For if you assent, then all who have popular, conventional knowledge, have also acquired analytic insight—which you deny. The same argument holds good if “knowledge in discerning the thought of another” be substituted for “popular … knowledge”.

5.5.1.10

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: Then you must admit that popular knowledge is analytic—which you deny. For if you assent, then all who have popular, conventional knowledge, have also acquired analytic insight—which you deny. The same argument holds good if “knowledge in discerning the thought of another” be substituted for “popular … knowledge”.

5.5.1.11

Cetopariyāye ñāṇaṃ paṭisambhidāti?

Is knowledge of the minds of others an analytical description?

Theravādin: Then you must admit that popular knowledge is analytic—which you deny. For if you assent, then all who have popular, conventional knowledge, have also acquired analytic insight—which you deny. The same argument holds good if “knowledge in discerning the thought of another” be substituted for “popular … knowledge”.

5.5.1.12

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

Theravādin: Then you must admit that popular knowledge is analytic—which you deny. For if you assent, then all who have popular, conventional knowledge, have also acquired analytic insight—which you deny. The same argument holds good if “knowledge in discerning the thought of another” be substituted for “popular … knowledge”.

5.5.1.13

cetopariyāye ñāṇaṃ paṭisambhidāti?

Is knowledge of the minds of others an analytical description?

Theravādin: Then you must admit that popular knowledge is analytic—which you deny. For if you assent, then all who have popular, conventional knowledge, have also acquired analytic insight—which you deny. The same argument holds good if “knowledge in discerning the thought of another” be substituted for “popular … knowledge”.

5.5.1.14

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: Then you must admit that popular knowledge is analytic—which you deny. For if you assent, then all who have popular, conventional knowledge, have also acquired analytic insight—which you deny. The same argument holds good if “knowledge in discerning the thought of another” be substituted for “popular … knowledge”.

5.5.1.15

Ye keci paracittaṃ jānanti, sabbe te paṭisambhidāpattāti?

Do all those who know another's mind attain the analytical descriptions?

Theravādin: Then you must admit that popular knowledge is analytic—which you deny. For if you assent, then all who have popular, conventional knowledge, have also acquired analytic insight—which you deny. The same argument holds good if “knowledge in discerning the thought of another” be substituted for “popular … knowledge”.

5.5.1.16

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

Theravādin: Then you must admit that popular knowledge is analytic—which you deny. For if you assent, then all who have popular, conventional knowledge, have also acquired analytic insight—which you deny. The same argument holds good if “knowledge in discerning the thought of another” be substituted for “popular … knowledge”.

5.5.2.1

Sabbaṃ ñāṇaṃ paṭisambhidāti?

Is all knowledge discriminative knowledge?

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.3

Sabbā paññā paṭisambhidāti?

Is all wisdom discriminative knowledge?

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.5

sabbā paññā paṭisambhidāti?

Is all wisdom discriminative knowledge?

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.7

Pathavīkasiṇaṃ samāpattiṃ samāpannassa atthi paññā, sā paññā paṭisambhidāti?

One who has entered the attainment of the earth-kasiṇa has wisdom; is that wisdom discriminative knowledge?

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.9

āpokasiṇaṃ …pe…

the water-kasiṇa …pe…

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.10

tejokasiṇaṃ …pe…

the fire-kasiṇa …pe…

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.11

vāyokasiṇaṃ …pe…

the air-kasiṇa …pe…

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.12

nīlakasiṇaṃ …pe…

the blue-kasiṇa …pe…

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.13

pītakasiṇaṃ …pe…

the yellow-kasiṇa …pe…

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.14

lohitakasiṇaṃ …pe…

the red-kasiṇa …pe…

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.15

odātakasiṇaṃ …pe…

the white-kasiṇa …pe…

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.16

ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ …pe…

the base of infinite space …pe…

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.17

viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ …pe…

the base of infinite consciousness …pe…

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.18

ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ …pe…

the base of nothingness …pe…

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.19

nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ samāpannassa …pe…

one who has entered the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception …pe…

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.20

dānaṃ dadantassa …pe…

one giving a gift …pe…

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.21

cīvaraṃ dadantassa …pe…

one giving a robe …pe…

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.22

piṇḍapātaṃ dadantassa …pe…

one giving almsfood …pe…

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.23

senāsanaṃ dadantassa …pe…

one giving a lodging …pe…

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.24

gilānapaccayabhesajjaparikkhāraṃ dadantassa atthi paññā, sā paññā paṭisambhidāti?

one giving medicinal requisites for the sick has wisdom; is that wisdom discriminative knowledge?

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.2.25

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

Again, if all knowledge is analytic, then a fortiori all discernment is analytic. Or, if you can assent to that, you must therewith admit that the discernment of one who attains Jhāna by any of the elemental, or colour “artifices”, who attains any of the four more abstract Jhānas, who gives donations, who gives to the Order any of the four necessaries of life, is analytic. But this you deny.

5.5.3.1

Na vattabbaṃ—

Should it not be said—

Andhaka: If I am wrong, you admit that there is such a thing as spiritual or supramundane discernment; is that not analytic?

5.5.3.2

“sabbaṃ ñāṇaṃ paṭisambhidā”ti?

“All knowledge is discriminative knowledge”?

Andhaka: If I am wrong, you admit that there is such a thing as spiritual or supramundane discernment; is that not analytic?

5.5.3.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

Andhaka: If I am wrong, you admit that there is such a thing as spiritual or supramundane discernment; is that not analytic?

5.5.3.4

Atthi lokuttarā paññā, sā paññā na paṭisambhidāti?

Is there supramundane wisdom, and that wisdom is not discriminative knowledge?

Andhaka: If I am wrong, you admit that there is such a thing as spiritual or supramundane discernment; is that not analytic?

5.5.3.5

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Theravādin: That I do not deny

5.5.3.6

tena hi sabbaṃ ñāṇaṃ paṭisambhidāti.

therefore indeed all knowledge is discriminative knowledge.

Andhaka: Then my proposition is true.

5.5.3.7

Paṭisambhidākathā niṭṭhitā.

The discussion on discriminative knowledge is finished.