Kathavatthu 6.4: Āruppakathā
Kathāvatthu 6.4
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- Pāli
Contents
Āruppakathā
6.4.1.1
Ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ asaṅkhatanti?
“Is the base of boundless space unconditioned?”
Controverted Point: That the sphere of infinite space is unconditioned.
6.4.1.2
Āmantā.
“Yes.”
Controverted Point: That the sphere of infinite space is unconditioned.
6.4.1.3
Nibbānaṃ tāṇaṃ leṇaṃ saraṇaṃ parāyanaṃ accutaṃ amatanti?
“Is it unbinding, a shelter, a refuge, a protection, the ultimate goal, imperishable, the deathless?”
Theravādin: Are you implying that it is in this respect identical with Nibbāna, the Shelter, the Cave, the Refuge, the Goal, the Past-Decease, the Ambrosial? You deny … Then you cannot so class it. If you affirm, we may then have two Unconditioneds, two Nibbānas … .
6.4.1.4
Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…
“It should not be said thus …pe…
Theravādin: Are you implying that it is in this respect identical with Nibbāna, the Shelter, the Cave, the Refuge, the Goal, the Past-Decease, the Ambrosial? You deny … Then you cannot so class it. If you affirm, we may then have two Unconditioneds, two Nibbānas … .
6.4.1.5
ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ asaṅkhataṃ, nibbānaṃ asaṅkhatanti?
is the base of boundless space unconditioned, and unbinding unconditioned?”
Theravādin: Are you implying that it is in this respect identical with Nibbāna, the Shelter, the Cave, the Refuge, the Goal, the Past-Decease, the Ambrosial? You deny … Then you cannot so class it. If you affirm, we may then have two Unconditioneds, two Nibbānas … .
6.4.1.6
Āmantā.
“Yes.”
Theravādin: Are you implying that it is in this respect identical with Nibbāna, the Shelter, the Cave, the Refuge, the Goal, the Past-Decease, the Ambrosial? You deny … Then you cannot so class it. If you affirm, we may then have two Unconditioneds, two Nibbānas … .
6.4.1.7
Dve asaṅkhatānīti?
“Are there two unconditioned [realities]?”
Theravādin: Are you implying that it is in this respect identical with Nibbāna, the Shelter, the Cave, the Refuge, the Goal, the Past-Decease, the Ambrosial? You deny … Then you cannot so class it. If you affirm, we may then have two Unconditioneds, two Nibbānas … .
6.4.1.8
Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…
“It should not be said thus …pe…
Theravādin: Are you implying that it is in this respect identical with Nibbāna, the Shelter, the Cave, the Refuge, the Goal, the Past-Decease, the Ambrosial? You deny … Then you cannot so class it. If you affirm, we may then have two Unconditioneds, two Nibbānas … .
6.4.1.9
dve asaṅkhatānīti?
are there two unconditioned [realities]?”
Theravādin: Are you implying that it is in this respect identical with Nibbāna, the Shelter, the Cave, the Refuge, the Goal, the Past-Decease, the Ambrosial? You deny … Then you cannot so class it. If you affirm, we may then have two Unconditioneds, two Nibbānas … .
6.4.1.10
Āmantā.
“Yes.”
Theravādin: Are you implying that it is in this respect identical with Nibbāna, the Shelter, the Cave, the Refuge, the Goal, the Past-Decease, the Ambrosial? You deny … Then you cannot so class it. If you affirm, we may then have two Unconditioneds, two Nibbānas … .
6.4.1.11
Dve tāṇāni …pe…
“Are there two shelters …pe…
Theravādin: Are you implying that it is in this respect identical with Nibbāna, the Shelter, the Cave, the Refuge, the Goal, the Past-Decease, the Ambrosial? You deny … Then you cannot so class it. If you affirm, we may then have two Unconditioneds, two Nibbānas … .
6.4.1.12
antarikā vāti?
or a gap [between them]?”
Theravādin: Are you implying that it is in this respect identical with Nibbāna, the Shelter, the Cave, the Refuge, the Goal, the Past-Decease, the Ambrosial? You deny … Then you cannot so class it. If you affirm, we may then have two Unconditioneds, two Nibbānas … .
6.4.1.13
Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….
“It should not be said thus …pe….
Theravādin: Are you implying that it is in this respect identical with Nibbāna, the Shelter, the Cave, the Refuge, the Goal, the Past-Decease, the Ambrosial? You deny … Then you cannot so class it. If you affirm, we may then have two Unconditioneds, two Nibbānas … .
6.4.2.1
Ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ asaṅkhatanti?
“Is the base of boundless space unconditioned?”
You admit, do you not, that the sphere of infinite space is a form of rebirth, a destination, an abode of beings, a sequel in living, a matrix of birth, a station for reborn consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Then is the unconditioned to be so described? Of course not … .
6.4.2.2
Āmantā.
“Yes.”
You admit, do you not, that the sphere of infinite space is a form of rebirth, a destination, an abode of beings, a sequel in living, a matrix of birth, a station for reborn consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Then is the unconditioned to be so described? Of course not … .
6.4.2.3
Ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ bhavo gati sattāvāso saṃsāro yoni viññāṇaṭṭhiti attabhāvapaṭilābhoti?
“Is the base of boundless space an existence, a destination, an abode of beings, saṃsāra, a place of birth, a station of consciousness, an acquisition of an individual state?”
You admit, do you not, that the sphere of infinite space is a form of rebirth, a destination, an abode of beings, a sequel in living, a matrix of birth, a station for reborn consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Then is the unconditioned to be so described? Of course not … .
6.4.2.4
Āmantā.
“Yes.”
You admit, do you not, that the sphere of infinite space is a form of rebirth, a destination, an abode of beings, a sequel in living, a matrix of birth, a station for reborn consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Then is the unconditioned to be so described? Of course not … .
6.4.2.5
Asaṅkhataṃ bhavo gati sattāvāso saṃsāro yoni viññāṇaṭṭhiti attabhāvapaṭilābhoti?
“Is the unconditioned an existence, a destination, an abode of beings, saṃsāra, a place of birth, a station of consciousness, an acquisition of an individual state?”
You admit, do you not, that the sphere of infinite space is a form of rebirth, a destination, an abode of beings, a sequel in living, a matrix of birth, a station for reborn consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Then is the unconditioned to be so described? Of course not … .
6.4.2.6
Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….
“It should not be said thus …pe….
You admit, do you not, that the sphere of infinite space is a form of rebirth, a destination, an abode of beings, a sequel in living, a matrix of birth, a station for reborn consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Then is the unconditioned to be so described? Of course not … .
6.4.3.1
Atthi ākāsānañcāyatanūpagaṃ kammanti?
“Is there kamma leading to the base of boundless space?”
Is there karma which brings us to rebirth in that sphere? “Yes”, you say. Then is there karma which brings about rebirth in the unconditioned? Of course you deny … There are beings who for their deserts are reborn in that sphere of infinite space, but are there any who for their deserts are reborn in the unconditioned? Of course you deny … .
6.4.3.2
Āmantā.
“Yes.”
Is there karma which brings us to rebirth in that sphere? “Yes”, you say. Then is there karma which brings about rebirth in the unconditioned? Of course you deny … There are beings who for their deserts are reborn in that sphere of infinite space, but are there any who for their deserts are reborn in the unconditioned? Of course you deny … .
6.4.3.3
Atthi asaṅkhatūpagaṃ kammanti?
“Is there kamma leading to the unconditioned?”
Is there karma which brings us to rebirth in that sphere? “Yes”, you say. Then is there karma which brings about rebirth in the unconditioned? Of course you deny … There are beings who for their deserts are reborn in that sphere of infinite space, but are there any who for their deserts are reborn in the unconditioned? Of course you deny … .
6.4.3.4
Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…
“It should not be said thus …pe…
Is there karma which brings us to rebirth in that sphere? “Yes”, you say. Then is there karma which brings about rebirth in the unconditioned? Of course you deny … There are beings who for their deserts are reborn in that sphere of infinite space, but are there any who for their deserts are reborn in the unconditioned? Of course you deny … .
6.4.3.5
atthi ākāsānañcāyatanūpagā sattāti?
are there beings who go to the base of boundless space?”
Is there karma which brings us to rebirth in that sphere? “Yes”, you say. Then is there karma which brings about rebirth in the unconditioned? Of course you deny … There are beings who for their deserts are reborn in that sphere of infinite space, but are there any who for their deserts are reborn in the unconditioned? Of course you deny … .
6.4.3.6
Āmantā.
“Yes.”
Is there karma which brings us to rebirth in that sphere? “Yes”, you say. Then is there karma which brings about rebirth in the unconditioned? Of course you deny … There are beings who for their deserts are reborn in that sphere of infinite space, but are there any who for their deserts are reborn in the unconditioned? Of course you deny … .
6.4.3.7
Atthi asaṅkhatūpagā sattāti?
“Are there beings who go to the unconditioned?”
Is there karma which brings us to rebirth in that sphere? “Yes”, you say. Then is there karma which brings about rebirth in the unconditioned? Of course you deny … There are beings who for their deserts are reborn in that sphere of infinite space, but are there any who for their deserts are reborn in the unconditioned? Of course you deny … .
6.4.3.8
Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….
“It should not be said thus …pe….
Is there karma which brings us to rebirth in that sphere? “Yes”, you say. Then is there karma which brings about rebirth in the unconditioned? Of course you deny … There are beings who for their deserts are reborn in that sphere of infinite space, but are there any who for their deserts are reborn in the unconditioned? Of course you deny … .
6.4.4.1
Ākāsānañcāyatane sattā jāyanti jīyanti mīyanti cavanti upapajjantīti?
“In the base of boundless space, are beings born, do they age, do they die, do they pass away, do they reappear?”
Do any beings become born, decay, die, decease, and spring up again in that sphere? Yes? But surely not in the unconditioned … .
6.4.4.2
Āmantā.
“Yes.”
Do any beings become born, decay, die, decease, and spring up again in that sphere? Yes? But surely not in the unconditioned … .
6.4.4.3
Asaṅkhate sattā jāyanti jīyanti mīyanti cavanti upapajjantīti?
“In the unconditioned, are beings born, do they age, do they die, do they pass away, do they reappear?”
Do any beings become born, decay, die, decease, and spring up again in that sphere? Yes? But surely not in the unconditioned … .
6.4.4.4
Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…
“It should not be said thus …pe…
Do any beings become born, decay, die, decease, and spring up again in that sphere? Yes? But surely not in the unconditioned … .
6.4.4.5
ākāsānañcāyatane atthi vedanā saññā saṅkhārā viññāṇanti?
in the base of boundless space, is there feeling, perception, volitional formations, consciousness?”
Does mind in its four constituents exist in that sphere? Yes? But hardly in the unconditioned … You cannot call the latter a plane of life with four constituents, as is the former.
6.4.4.6
Āmantā.
“Yes.”
Does mind in its four constituents exist in that sphere? Yes? But hardly in the unconditioned … You cannot call the latter a plane of life with four constituents, as is the former.
6.4.4.7
Asaṅkhate atthi vedanā saññā saṅkhārā viññāṇanti?
“In the unconditioned, is there feeling, perception, volitional formations, consciousness?”
Does mind in its four constituents exist in that sphere? Yes? But hardly in the unconditioned … You cannot call the latter a plane of life with four constituents, as is the former.
6.4.4.8
Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…
“It should not be said thus …pe…
Does mind in its four constituents exist in that sphere? Yes? But hardly in the unconditioned … You cannot call the latter a plane of life with four constituents, as is the former.
6.4.4.9
ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ catuvokārabhavoti?
is the base of boundless space an existence with four aggregates?”
Does mind in its four constituents exist in that sphere? Yes? But hardly in the unconditioned … You cannot call the latter a plane of life with four constituents, as is the former.
6.4.4.10
Āmantā.
“Yes.”
Does mind in its four constituents exist in that sphere? Yes? But hardly in the unconditioned … You cannot call the latter a plane of life with four constituents, as is the former.
6.4.4.11
Asaṅkhataṃ catuvokārabhavoti?
“Is the unconditioned an existence with four aggregates?”
Does mind in its four constituents exist in that sphere? Yes? But hardly in the unconditioned … You cannot call the latter a plane of life with four constituents, as is the former.
6.4.4.12
Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….
“It should not be said thus …pe….
Does mind in its four constituents exist in that sphere? Yes? But hardly in the unconditioned … You cannot call the latter a plane of life with four constituents, as is the former.
6.4.5.1
Na vattabbaṃ—
“Should it not be said that
Opponent: But did not the Exalted One say that the four Immaterial spheres are imperturbable? Surely then we may call them unconditioned.
6.4.5.2
“cattāro āruppā asaṅkhatā”ti?
‘the four formless [attainments] are unconditioned’?”
Opponent: But did not the Exalted One say that the four Immaterial spheres are imperturbable? Surely then we may call them unconditioned.
6.4.5.3
Āmantā.
“Yes.”
Opponent: But did not the Exalted One say that the four Immaterial spheres are imperturbable? Surely then we may call them unconditioned.
6.4.5.4
Nanu cattāro āruppā anejā vuttā bhagavatāti?
“Were not the four formless [attainments] declared to be imperturbable by the Blessed One?”
Opponent: But did not the Exalted One say that the four Immaterial spheres are imperturbable? Surely then we may call them unconditioned.
6.4.5.5
Āmantā.
“Yes.”
Opponent: But did not the Exalted One say that the four Immaterial spheres are imperturbable? Surely then we may call them unconditioned.
6.4.5.6
Hañci cattāro āruppā anejā vuttā bhagavatā, tena vata re vattabbe—
“If the four formless [attainments] were declared to be imperturbable by the Blessed One, then indeed, sir, it should be said:
Opponent: But did not the Exalted One say that the four Immaterial spheres are imperturbable? Surely then we may call them unconditioned.
6.4.5.7
“cattāro āruppā asaṅkhatā”ti.
‘The four formless [attainments] are unconditioned.’”
Opponent: But did not the Exalted One say that the four Immaterial spheres are imperturbable? Surely then we may call them unconditioned.
6.4.5.8
Āruppakathā niṭṭhitā.
Discussion on the Formless is finished.
Translations (2)
- Points of Controversy, or Subjects of Discourse — Shwe Zan Aung & Caroline A. F. Rhys Davids 1915, English
- English (machine translation) — English, machine translation
Commentaries (2)
- Mūlaṭīkā — Ānanda (Vanaratana), Pāli
- Pañcappakaraṇaṭṭhakathā — Buddhaghosa, Pāli
Discussed in (2)
- The Conception of Buddhist Nirvāṇa — Stcherbatsky 1927, English
- Buddhist Philosophy in India and Ceylon — Keith 1923, English