Kathavatthu 8.8: Arūperūpakathā

8.8.1.1

Atthi rūpaṃ arūpesūti?

Is there material form in the formless [realms]?

Controverted Point: That there is matter among the Immaterials.

8.8.1.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Controverted Point: That there is matter among the Immaterials.

8.8.1.3

Rūpabhavo rūpagati rūpasattāvāso rūpasaṃsāro rūpayoni rūpattabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

Is it form-existence, form-destination, form-abode of beings, form-saṃsāra, form-womb, acquisition of form-individual existence?

Theravādin: Is then “matter” (rūpa) a sphere of life, a destiny, a realm of beings, renewed life, a matrix, an acquiring of individuality? This you deny; but all this you can predicate truly of Arūpa. Hence you cannot maintain your proposition.

8.8.1.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Theravādin: Is then “matter” (rūpa) a sphere of life, a destiny, a realm of beings, renewed life, a matrix, an acquiring of individuality? This you deny; but all this you can predicate truly of Arūpa. Hence you cannot maintain your proposition.

8.8.1.5

nanu arūpabhavo arūpagati arūpasattāvāso arūpasaṃsāro arūpayoni arūpattabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

is it not formless-existence, formless-destination, formless-abode of beings, formless-saṃsāra, formless-womb, acquisition of formless-individual existence?

Theravādin: Is then “matter” (rūpa) a sphere of life, a destiny, a realm of beings, renewed life, a matrix, an acquiring of individuality? This you deny; but all this you can predicate truly of Arūpa. Hence you cannot maintain your proposition.

8.8.1.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: Is then “matter” (rūpa) a sphere of life, a destiny, a realm of beings, renewed life, a matrix, an acquiring of individuality? This you deny; but all this you can predicate truly of Arūpa. Hence you cannot maintain your proposition.

8.8.1.7

Hañci arūpabhavo …pe… arūpattabhāvapaṭilābho, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If it is formless-existence …pe… acquisition of formless-individual existence, then indeed, sir, it should not be said:

Theravādin: Is then “matter” (rūpa) a sphere of life, a destiny, a realm of beings, renewed life, a matrix, an acquiring of individuality? This you deny; but all this you can predicate truly of Arūpa. Hence you cannot maintain your proposition.

8.8.1.8

“atthi rūpaṃ arūpesū”ti.

“There is material form in the formless [realms].”

Theravādin: Is then “matter” (rūpa) a sphere of life, a destiny, a realm of beings, renewed life, a matrix, an acquiring of individuality? This you deny; but all this you can predicate truly of Arūpa. Hence you cannot maintain your proposition.

8.8.2.1

Atthi rūpaṃ arūpesūti?

Is there material form in the formless [realms]?

You cannot predicate them truly of a five-mode existence, one mode of which is material qualities. But you can do so respecting a four-mode existence, that is, with the material qualities omitted, as is the case with Arūpa … .

8.8.2.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

You cannot predicate them truly of a five-mode existence, one mode of which is material qualities. But you can do so respecting a four-mode existence, that is, with the material qualities omitted, as is the case with Arūpa … .

8.8.2.3

Pañcavokārabhavo gati sattāvāso saṃsāro yoni viññāṇaṭṭhiti attabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

Is it five-constituent existence, destination, abode of beings, saṃsāra, womb, station of consciousness, acquisition of individual existence?

You cannot predicate them truly of a five-mode existence, one mode of which is material qualities. But you can do so respecting a four-mode existence, that is, with the material qualities omitted, as is the case with Arūpa … .

8.8.2.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

You cannot predicate them truly of a five-mode existence, one mode of which is material qualities. But you can do so respecting a four-mode existence, that is, with the material qualities omitted, as is the case with Arūpa … .

8.8.2.5

nanu catuvokārabhavo …pe… attabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

is it not four-constituent existence …pe… acquisition of individual existence?

You cannot predicate them truly of a five-mode existence, one mode of which is material qualities. But you can do so respecting a four-mode existence, that is, with the material qualities omitted, as is the case with Arūpa … .

8.8.2.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

You cannot predicate them truly of a five-mode existence, one mode of which is material qualities. But you can do so respecting a four-mode existence, that is, with the material qualities omitted, as is the case with Arūpa … .

8.8.2.7

Hañci catuvokārabhavo gati …pe… attabhāvapaṭilābho, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If it is four-constituent existence, destination …pe… acquisition of individual existence, then indeed, sir, it should not be said:

You cannot predicate them truly of a five-mode existence, one mode of which is material qualities. But you can do so respecting a four-mode existence, that is, with the material qualities omitted, as is the case with Arūpa … .

8.8.2.8

“atthi rūpaṃ arūpesū”ti.

“There is material form in the formless [realms].”

You cannot predicate them truly of a five-mode existence, one mode of which is material qualities. But you can do so respecting a four-mode existence, that is, with the material qualities omitted, as is the case with Arūpa … .

8.8.3.1

Atthi rūpaṃ rūpadhātuyā, so ca rūpabhavo rūpagati rūpasattāvāso rūpasaṃsāro rūpayoni rūpattabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

There is material form in the form element, and is that form-existence, form-destination, form-abode of beings, form-saṃsāra, form-womb, acquisition of form-individual existence?

You can predicate them truly of the Rūpa-sphere, where there yet is matter. But this sphere is not identical with the Arūpa-sphere. And if you predicate matter of the Arūpa-sphere, you must show that matter agrees with the description you can truly give of the Arūpa-sphere as a state of existence, a destiny, etc.

8.8.3.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.8.3.3

Atthi rūpaṃ arūpesu, so ca rūpabhavo rūpagati …pe… rūpattabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

There is material form in the formless [realms], and is that form-existence, form-destination …pe… acquisition of form-individual existence?

8.8.3.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.8.3.5

atthi rūpaṃ rūpadhātuyā, so ca pañcavokārabhavo gati …pe… attabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

There is material form in the form element, and is that five-constituent existence, destination …pe… acquisition of individual existence?

8.8.3.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.8.3.7

Atthi rūpaṃ arūpesu, so ca pañcavokārabhavo gati …pe… attabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

There is material form in the formless [realms], and is that five-constituent existence, destination …pe… acquisition of individual existence?

8.8.3.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

8.8.4.1

Atthi rūpaṃ arūpesu, so ca arūpabhavo arūpagati arūpasattāvāso arūpasaṃsāro arūpayoni arūpattabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

There is material form in the formless [realms], and is that formless-existence, formless-destination, formless-abode of beings, formless-saṃsāra, formless-womb, acquisition of formless-individual existence?

8.8.4.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.8.4.3

Atthi rūpaṃ rūpadhātuyā, so ca arūpabhavo arūpagati …pe… arūpattabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

There is material form in the form element, and is that formless existence, formless destination …pe… formless acquisition of an individual existence?

8.8.4.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.8.4.5

atthi rūpaṃ arūpesu, so ca catuvokārabhavo gati …pe… attabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

There is material form in the formless, and is that four-constituent existence, destination …pe… acquisition of an individual existence?

8.8.4.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.8.4.7

Atthi rūpaṃ rūpadhātuyā, so ca catuvokārabhavo gati …pe… attabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

There is material form in the form element, and is that four-constituent existence, destination …pe… acquisition of an individual existence?

8.8.4.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

8.8.5.1

Atthi rūpaṃ arūpesūti?

"There is material form in the formless"?

Again, did not the Exalted One say that the Arūpa was a way of escape from visible or material things? If that is true, do you still maintain your proposition? Yes? Well, then, the Exalted One said that renunciation was a way of escape from sense-desires. Now, according to your reasoning (if there is matter in the Immaterial), there are sense-desires in renunciation, and there are intoxicants in those who are freed from them, there are things “included” (in intoxicant-infested states of the three spheres) among the “unincluded” which is absurd.

8.8.5.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.8.5.3

Nanu rūpānaṃ nissaraṇaṃ arūpaṃ vuttaṃ bhagavatāti?

Was it not said by the Blessed One: "The formless is the escape from material forms"?

8.8.5.4

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.8.5.5

Hañci rūpānaṃ nissaraṇaṃ arūpaṃ vuttaṃ bhagavatā, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If it was said by the Blessed One: "The formless is the escape from material forms", then surely, sir, it should not be said:

8.8.5.6

“atthi rūpaṃ arūpesū”ti.

"There is material form in the formless".

8.8.6.1

Rūpānaṃ nissaraṇaṃ arūpaṃ vuttaṃ bhagavatā, atthi rūpaṃ arūpesūti?

It was said by the Blessed One: "The formless is the escape from material forms", yet is there material form in the formless?

8.8.6.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.8.6.3

Kāmānaṃ nissaraṇaṃ nekkhammaṃ vuttaṃ bhagavatā, atthi nekkhammesu kāmā, atthi anāsavesu āsavā, atthi apariyāpannesu pariyāpannāti?

It was said by the Blessed One: "Renunciation is the escape from sensual pleasures"; are there sensual pleasures in renunciations, are there taints in the untainted, is there the mundane in the supramundane?

8.8.6.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

8.8.6.5

Arūpe rūpakathā niṭṭhitā.

Discussion on material form in the formless is finished.