Kathavatthu 9.4: Anusayāanārammaṇātikathā

9.4.1.1

Anusayā anārammaṇāti?

Do underlying tendencies have no object?

Controverted Point: That latent (immoral) bias is without mental object.

9.4.1.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Controverted Point: That latent (immoral) bias is without mental object.

9.4.1.3

Rūpaṃ nibbānaṃ cakkhāyatanaṃ …pe…

[Are they] material form, unbinding, the eye base …pe…

Theravādin: Then the forms of latent bias must be either material quality, or Nibbāna, or one of the five organs or five objects of sense, which you deny.

9.4.1.4

phoṭṭhabbāyatananti?

the tangible-object base?

Theravādin: Then the forms of latent bias must be either material quality, or Nibbāna, or one of the five organs or five objects of sense, which you deny.

9.4.1.5

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

Theravādin: Then the forms of latent bias must be either material quality, or Nibbāna, or one of the five organs or five objects of sense, which you deny.

9.4.2.1

Kāmarāgānusayo anārammaṇoti?

Does the underlying tendency to sensual lust have no object?

But let us take the first form, the bias of sense-desire. If this is without mental object, must you not also affirm the same of all manifestations and notions of sense-desire—to wit, sense-desire as lust, as an outburst of lustful desire, as a Fetter, as a Flood, as a Bond, as an Obstacle? Would you not rather affirm just the opposite of these, that they are concomitant with mental object?

9.4.2.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

But let us take the first form, the bias of sense-desire. If this is without mental object, must you not also affirm the same of all manifestations and notions of sense-desire—to wit, sense-desire as lust, as an outburst of lustful desire, as a Fetter, as a Flood, as a Bond, as an Obstacle? Would you not rather affirm just the opposite of these, that they are concomitant with mental object?

9.4.2.3

Kāmarāgo kāmarāgapariyuṭṭhānaṃ kāmarāgasaṃyojanaṃ kāmogho kāmayogo kāmacchandanīvaraṇaṃ anārammaṇanti?

Do sensual lust, the outburst of sensual lust, the fetter of sensual lust, the flood of sensual lust, the yoke of sensual lust, the hindrance of sensual desire have no object?

But let us take the first form, the bias of sense-desire. If this is without mental object, must you not also affirm the same of all manifestations and notions of sense-desire—to wit, sense-desire as lust, as an outburst of lustful desire, as a Fetter, as a Flood, as a Bond, as an Obstacle? Would you not rather affirm just the opposite of these, that they are concomitant with mental object?

9.4.2.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe….

But let us take the first form, the bias of sense-desire. If this is without mental object, must you not also affirm the same of all manifestations and notions of sense-desire—to wit, sense-desire as lust, as an outburst of lustful desire, as a Fetter, as a Flood, as a Bond, as an Obstacle? Would you not rather affirm just the opposite of these, that they are concomitant with mental object?

9.4.2.5

kāmarāgo kāmarāgapariyuṭṭhānaṃ kāmarāgasaṃyojanaṃ kāmogho kāmayogo kāmacchandanīvaraṇaṃ sārammaṇanti?

Do sensual lust, the outburst of sensual lust, the fetter of sensual lust, the flood of sensual lust, the yoke of sensual lust, the hindrance of sensual desire have an object?

But let us take the first form, the bias of sense-desire. If this is without mental object, must you not also affirm the same of all manifestations and notions of sense-desire—to wit, sense-desire as lust, as an outburst of lustful desire, as a Fetter, as a Flood, as a Bond, as an Obstacle? Would you not rather affirm just the opposite of these, that they are concomitant with mental object?

9.4.2.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

But let us take the first form, the bias of sense-desire. If this is without mental object, must you not also affirm the same of all manifestations and notions of sense-desire—to wit, sense-desire as lust, as an outburst of lustful desire, as a Fetter, as a Flood, as a Bond, as an Obstacle? Would you not rather affirm just the opposite of these, that they are concomitant with mental object?

9.4.2.7

Kāmarāgānusayo sārammaṇoti?

Does the underlying tendency to sensual lust have an object?

But let us take the first form, the bias of sense-desire. If this is without mental object, must you not also affirm the same of all manifestations and notions of sense-desire—to wit, sense-desire as lust, as an outburst of lustful desire, as a Fetter, as a Flood, as a Bond, as an Obstacle? Would you not rather affirm just the opposite of these, that they are concomitant with mental object?

9.4.2.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

But let us take the first form, the bias of sense-desire. If this is without mental object, must you not also affirm the same of all manifestations and notions of sense-desire—to wit, sense-desire as lust, as an outburst of lustful desire, as a Fetter, as a Flood, as a Bond, as an Obstacle? Would you not rather affirm just the opposite of these, that they are concomitant with mental object?

9.4.3.1

Kāmarāgānusayo anārammaṇoti?

Does the underlying tendency to sensual lust have no object?

Or again, in what aggregate is latent bias included? The aggregate of mental coefficients, you say. But these are concomitant with object not less than the other mental aggregates: this you of course admit. How then can you maintain your proposition? If you affirm that (a) the bias of sense-lust has the aggregate of mental coefficients involved with it, and yet is without mental object, you must say no less of (b) sense-lust in general. But you refuse (making of sense-lust as bias a thing apart).

9.4.3.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

9.4.3.3

Katamakkhandhapariyāpannoti?

Included in which aggregate?

9.4.3.4

Saṅkhārakkhandhapariyāpannoti.

Included in the aggregate of volitional formations.

9.4.3.5

Saṅkhārakkhandho anārammaṇoti?

Does the aggregate of volitional formations have no object?

9.4.3.6

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe….

9.4.3.7

saṅkhārakkhandho anārammaṇoti?

Is the aggregate of volitional formations without an object?

9.4.3.8

Āmantā.

Yes.

9.4.3.9

Vedanākkhandho saññākkhandho viññāṇakkhandho anārammaṇoti?

Are the aggregate of feeling, the aggregate of perception, and the aggregate of consciousness without an object?

9.4.3.10

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

9.4.4.1

Kāmarāgānusayo saṅkhārakkhandhapariyāpanno anārammaṇoti?

Is the underlying tendency to sensual lust, included in the aggregate of volitional formations, without an object?

9.4.4.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

9.4.4.3

Kāmarāgo saṅkhārakkhandhapariyāpanno anārammaṇoti?

Is sensual lust, included in the aggregate of volitional formations, without an object?

9.4.4.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

9.4.4.5

kāmarāgo saṅkhārakkhandhapariyāpanno sārammaṇoti?

Is sensual lust, included in the aggregate of volitional formations, with an object?

9.4.4.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

9.4.4.7

Kāmarāgānusayo saṅkhārakkhandhapariyāpanno sārammaṇoti?

Is the underlying tendency to sensual lust, included in the aggregate of volitional formations, with an object?

9.4.4.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

9.4.5.1

Kāmarāgānusayo saṅkhārakkhandhapariyāpanno anārammaṇo, kāmarāgo saṅkhārakkhandhapariyāpanno sārammaṇoti?

Is the underlying tendency to sensual lust, included in the aggregate of volitional formations, without an object, while sensual lust, included in the aggregate of volitional formations, is with an object?

Thus you get: (a) aggregate of mental coefficients without mental object; (b) aggregate of mental coefficients with mental object.

9.4.5.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Thus you get: (a) aggregate of mental coefficients without mental object; (b) aggregate of mental coefficients with mental object.

9.4.5.3

Saṅkhārakkhandho ekadeso sārammaṇo ekadeso anārammaṇoti?

Is one part of the aggregate of volitional formations with an object and another part without an object?

Then is that aggregate partly with, partly without, mental object? Then must you affirm the same of all the mental aggregates … which you may not … .

9.4.5.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Then is that aggregate partly with, partly without, mental object? Then must you affirm the same of all the mental aggregates … which you may not … .

9.4.5.5

saṅkhārakkhandho ekadeso sārammaṇo ekadeso anārammaṇoti?

Is one part of the aggregate of volitional formations with an object and another part without an object?

Then is that aggregate partly with, partly without, mental object? Then must you affirm the same of all the mental aggregates … which you may not … .

9.4.5.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

Then is that aggregate partly with, partly without, mental object? Then must you affirm the same of all the mental aggregates … which you may not … .

9.4.5.7

Vedanākkhandho saññākkhandho viññāṇakkhandho ekadeso sārammaṇo ekadeso anārammaṇoti?

Is one part of the aggregate of feeling, the aggregate of perception, and the aggregate of consciousness with an object and another part without an object?

Then is that aggregate partly with, partly without, mental object? Then must you affirm the same of all the mental aggregates … which you may not … .

9.4.5.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

Then is that aggregate partly with, partly without, mental object? Then must you affirm the same of all the mental aggregates … which you may not … .

9.4.6.1

Paṭighānusayo mānānusayo diṭṭhānusayo vicikicchānusayo bhavarāgānusayo avijjānusayo anārammaṇoti?

Are the underlying tendency to aversion, the underlying tendency to conceit, the underlying tendency to views, the underlying tendency to doubt, the underlying tendency to lust for existence, and the underlying tendency to ignorance without an object?

Or, passing over the next five latent biases—resentment, conceit, mere opinion, doubt, lust of rebirth—as disposed of by this same argument, take similarly the seventh—nescience—if this as latent bias is without object, it must be no less without mental object when figured as Flood, Bond, Outburst, Fetter, Obstacle—which you deny keeping the latent bias a thing apart.

9.4.6.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Or, passing over the next five latent biases—resentment, conceit, mere opinion, doubt, lust of rebirth—as disposed of by this same argument, take similarly the seventh—nescience—if this as latent bias is without object, it must be no less without mental object when figured as Flood, Bond, Outburst, Fetter, Obstacle—which you deny keeping the latent bias a thing apart.

9.4.6.3

Avijjā avijjogho avijjāyogo avijjānusayo avijjāpariyuṭṭhānaṃ avijjāsaṃyojanaṃ avijjānīvaraṇaṃ anārammaṇanti?

Are ignorance, the flood of ignorance, the yoke of ignorance, the underlying tendency to ignorance, the obsession of ignorance, the fetter of ignorance, and the hindrance of ignorance without an object?

Or, passing over the next five latent biases—resentment, conceit, mere opinion, doubt, lust of rebirth—as disposed of by this same argument, take similarly the seventh—nescience—if this as latent bias is without object, it must be no less without mental object when figured as Flood, Bond, Outburst, Fetter, Obstacle—which you deny keeping the latent bias a thing apart.

9.4.6.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Or, passing over the next five latent biases—resentment, conceit, mere opinion, doubt, lust of rebirth—as disposed of by this same argument, take similarly the seventh—nescience—if this as latent bias is without object, it must be no less without mental object when figured as Flood, Bond, Outburst, Fetter, Obstacle—which you deny keeping the latent bias a thing apart.

9.4.6.5

avijjā avijjogho …pe…

Are ignorance, the flood of ignorance …pe…

Or, passing over the next five latent biases—resentment, conceit, mere opinion, doubt, lust of rebirth—as disposed of by this same argument, take similarly the seventh—nescience—if this as latent bias is without object, it must be no less without mental object when figured as Flood, Bond, Outburst, Fetter, Obstacle—which you deny keeping the latent bias a thing apart.

9.4.6.6

avijjānīvaraṇaṃ sārammaṇanti?

the hindrance of ignorance with an object?

Or, passing over the next five latent biases—resentment, conceit, mere opinion, doubt, lust of rebirth—as disposed of by this same argument, take similarly the seventh—nescience—if this as latent bias is without object, it must be no less without mental object when figured as Flood, Bond, Outburst, Fetter, Obstacle—which you deny keeping the latent bias a thing apart.

9.4.6.7

Āmantā.

Yes.

Or, passing over the next five latent biases—resentment, conceit, mere opinion, doubt, lust of rebirth—as disposed of by this same argument, take similarly the seventh—nescience—if this as latent bias is without object, it must be no less without mental object when figured as Flood, Bond, Outburst, Fetter, Obstacle—which you deny keeping the latent bias a thing apart.

9.4.6.8

Avijjānusayo sārammaṇoti?

Is the underlying tendency to ignorance with an object?

Or, passing over the next five latent biases—resentment, conceit, mere opinion, doubt, lust of rebirth—as disposed of by this same argument, take similarly the seventh—nescience—if this as latent bias is without object, it must be no less without mental object when figured as Flood, Bond, Outburst, Fetter, Obstacle—which you deny keeping the latent bias a thing apart.

9.4.6.9

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

Or, passing over the next five latent biases—resentment, conceit, mere opinion, doubt, lust of rebirth—as disposed of by this same argument, take similarly the seventh—nescience—if this as latent bias is without object, it must be no less without mental object when figured as Flood, Bond, Outburst, Fetter, Obstacle—which you deny keeping the latent bias a thing apart.

9.4.7.1

Avijjānusayo anārammaṇoti?

Is the underlying tendency to ignorance without an object?

The argument about the aggregates applies no less to this form of bias.

9.4.7.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

9.4.7.3

Katamakkhandhapariyāpannoti?

Included in which aggregate?

9.4.7.4

Saṅkhārakkhandhapariyāpannoti.

Included in the aggregate of volitional formations.

9.4.7.5

Saṅkhārakkhandho anārammaṇoti?

Is the aggregate of volitional formations without an object?

9.4.7.6

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

9.4.7.7

saṅkhārakkhandho anārammaṇoti?

Is the aggregate of volitional formations without an object?

9.4.7.8

Āmantā.

Yes.

9.4.7.9

Vedanākkhandho saññākkhandho viññāṇakkhandho anārammaṇoti?

Are the aggregate of feeling, the aggregate of perception, and the aggregate of consciousness without an object?

9.4.7.10

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

9.4.8.1

Avijjānusayo saṅkhārakkhandhapariyāpanno anārammaṇoti?

Is the underlying tendency to ignorance, included in the aggregate of volitional formations, without an object?

9.4.8.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

9.4.8.3

Avijjā saṅkhārakkhandhapariyāpannā anārammaṇāti?

Is ignorance, included in the aggregate of volitional formations, without an object?

9.4.8.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

9.4.8.5

avijjā saṅkhārakkhandhapariyāpannā sārammaṇāti?

Is ignorance, included in the aggregate of volitional formations, with an object?

9.4.8.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

9.4.8.7

Avijjānusayo saṅkhārakkhandhapariyāpanno sārammaṇoti?

Is the underlying tendency to ignorance, included in the aggregate of volitional formations, with an object?

9.4.8.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

9.4.9.1

Avijjānusayo saṅkhārakkhandhapariyāpanno anārammaṇo, avijjā saṅkhārakkhandhapariyāpannā sārammaṇāti?

Is the underlying tendency to ignorance, included in the aggregate of volitional formations, without an object, while ignorance, included in the aggregate of volitional formations, is with an object?

9.4.9.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

9.4.9.3

Saṅkhārakkhandho ekadeso sārammaṇo ekadeso anārammaṇoti?

Is one part of the aggregate of volitional formations with an object and another part without an object?

9.4.9.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

9.4.9.5

saṅkhārakkhandho ekadeso sārammaṇo ekadeso anārammaṇoti?

Is one part of the aggregate of volitional formations with an object and another part without an object?

9.4.9.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

9.4.9.7

Vedanākkhandho saññākkhandho viññāṇakkhandho ekadeso sārammaṇo ekadeso anārammaṇoti?

Is one part of the aggregate of feeling, the aggregate of perception, and the aggregate of consciousness with an object and another part without an object?

9.4.9.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

9.4.10.1

Na vattabbaṃ—

Should it not be said that

Andhaka, Uttarāpathaka: But is it not right to say that, when an average man of the world is thinking of something that is morally good or indeterminate, he may be described as “having latent bias”? And are not at that moment those forms of bias latent in him without mental object?

9.4.10.2

“anusayā anārammaṇā”ti?

“underlying tendencies are without an object”?

Andhaka, Uttarāpathaka: But is it not right to say that, when an average man of the world is thinking of something that is morally good or indeterminate, he may be described as “having latent bias”? And are not at that moment those forms of bias latent in him without mental object?

9.4.10.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

Andhaka, Uttarāpathaka: But is it not right to say that, when an average man of the world is thinking of something that is morally good or indeterminate, he may be described as “having latent bias”? And are not at that moment those forms of bias latent in him without mental object?

9.4.10.4

Puthujjano kusalābyākate citte vattamāne sānusayoti vattabboti?

Should an ordinary person be said to possess underlying tendencies when wholesome or indeterminate mind is occurring?

Andhaka, Uttarāpathaka: But is it not right to say that, when an average man of the world is thinking of something that is morally good or indeterminate, he may be described as “having latent bias”? And are not at that moment those forms of bias latent in him without mental object?

9.4.10.5

Āmantā.

Yes.

Andhaka, Uttarāpathaka: But is it not right to say that, when an average man of the world is thinking of something that is morally good or indeterminate, he may be described as “having latent bias”? And are not at that moment those forms of bias latent in him without mental object?

9.4.10.6

Atthi tesaṃ anusayānaṃ ārammaṇanti?

Is there an object for those underlying tendencies?

Andhaka, Uttarāpathaka: But is it not right to say that, when an average man of the world is thinking of something that is morally good or indeterminate, he may be described as “having latent bias”? And are not at that moment those forms of bias latent in him without mental object?

9.4.10.7

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Andhaka, Uttarāpathaka: But is it not right to say that, when an average man of the world is thinking of something that is morally good or indeterminate, he may be described as “having latent bias”? And are not at that moment those forms of bias latent in him without mental object?

9.4.10.8

tena hi anusayā anārammaṇāti.

Therefore, underlying tendencies are without an object.

Andhaka, Uttarāpathaka: But is it not right to say that, when an average man of the world is thinking of something that is morally good or indeterminate, he may be described as “having latent bias”? And are not at that moment those forms of bias latent in him without mental object?

9.4.10.9

Puthujjano kusalābyākate citte vattamāne sarāgoti vattabboti?

Should a worldling, when wholesome or indeterminate consciousness is occurring, be called passionate?

Theravādin: But you could equally well say of him at such a moment that he had lust in his heart, and you deny that lust is without mental object … .

9.4.10.10

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: But you could equally well say of him at such a moment that he had lust in his heart, and you deny that lust is without mental object … .

9.4.10.11

Atthi tassa rāgassa ārammaṇanti?

Is there an object for that lust?

Theravādin: But you could equally well say of him at such a moment that he had lust in his heart, and you deny that lust is without mental object … .

9.4.10.12

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

Theravādin: But you could equally well say of him at such a moment that he had lust in his heart, and you deny that lust is without mental object … .

9.4.10.13

Tena hi rāgo anārammaṇoti.

Therefore, lust is without an object.

Theravādin: But you could equally well say of him at such a moment that he had lust in his heart, and you deny that lust is without mental object … .

9.4.10.14

Anusayā anārammaṇātikathā niṭṭhitā.

The discussion on whether underlying tendencies are without an object is finished.