Kathavatthu 20.2: Ñāṇakathā

20.2.1.1

Natthi puthujjanassa ñāṇanti?

Does an ordinary person have no knowledge?

Controverted Point: That “insight” is not for the average man.

20.2.1.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Controverted Point: That “insight” is not for the average man.

20.2.1.3

Natthi puthujjanassa paññā pajānanā vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo sallakkhaṇā upalakkhaṇā paccupalakkhaṇāti?

Does an ordinary person have no wisdom, discernment, investigation, examination, investigation of dhammas, marking, noting, close observation?

Theravādin: But you imply that a worldly man has no analytic discernment, no analytic understanding, no ability to investigate or examine, no faculty of research, no ability to mark well, observe closely, mark repeatedly. Is not the opposite true?

20.2.1.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Theravādin: But you imply that a worldly man has no analytic discernment, no analytic understanding, no ability to investigate or examine, no faculty of research, no ability to mark well, observe closely, mark repeatedly. Is not the opposite true?

20.2.1.5

nanu atthi puthujjanassa paññā pajānanā vicayo …pe…

Does an ordinary person not have wisdom, discernment, investigation …pe…

Theravādin: But you imply that a worldly man has no analytic discernment, no analytic understanding, no ability to investigate or examine, no faculty of research, no ability to mark well, observe closely, mark repeatedly. Is not the opposite true?

20.2.1.6

paccupalakkhaṇāti?

close observation?

Theravādin: But you imply that a worldly man has no analytic discernment, no analytic understanding, no ability to investigate or examine, no faculty of research, no ability to mark well, observe closely, mark repeatedly. Is not the opposite true?

20.2.1.7

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: But you imply that a worldly man has no analytic discernment, no analytic understanding, no ability to investigate or examine, no faculty of research, no ability to mark well, observe closely, mark repeatedly. Is not the opposite true?

20.2.1.8

Hañci atthi puthujjanassa paññā pajānanā vicayo …pe…

If an ordinary person has wisdom, discernment, investigation …pe…

Theravādin: But you imply that a worldly man has no analytic discernment, no analytic understanding, no ability to investigate or examine, no faculty of research, no ability to mark well, observe closely, mark repeatedly. Is not the opposite true?

20.2.1.9

paccupalakkhaṇā, no ca vata re vattabbe—

close observation, then indeed, sir, it should not be said:

Theravādin: But you imply that a worldly man has no analytic discernment, no analytic understanding, no ability to investigate or examine, no faculty of research, no ability to mark well, observe closely, mark repeatedly. Is not the opposite true?

20.2.1.10

“natthi puthujjanassa ñāṇan”ti.

“An ordinary person has no knowledge.”

Theravādin: But you imply that a worldly man has no analytic discernment, no analytic understanding, no ability to investigate or examine, no faculty of research, no ability to mark well, observe closely, mark repeatedly. Is not the opposite true?

20.2.2.1

Natthi puthujjanassa ñāṇanti?

Does an ordinary person have no knowledge?

Again, you admit, do you not? that there is not one of the four Rūpa-jhānas or of the four Arūpa-jhānas to which a man of the world may not attain, and that he is capable of liberality towards the Brethren as to the four requisites: raiment and so forth. Surely then it is not right to say a worldly man can have no insight.

20.2.2.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

20.2.2.3

Puthujjano paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ samāpajjeyyāti?

Could an ordinary person attain the first absorption?

20.2.2.4

Āmantā.

Yes.

20.2.2.5

Hañci puthujjano paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ samāpajjeyya, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If an ordinary person could attain the first absorption, then indeed, sir, it should not be said:

20.2.2.6

“natthi puthujjanassa ñāṇan”ti.

“An ordinary person has no knowledge.”

20.2.3.1

Puthujjano dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ …pe…

Could an ordinary person [attain] the second absorption …pe…

20.2.3.2

tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ …pe…

the third absorption …pe…

20.2.3.3

catutthaṃ jhānaṃ …pe…

the fourth absorption …pe…

20.2.3.4

ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ samāpajjeyya,

attain the base of infinite space,

20.2.3.5

viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ samāpajjeyya,

attain the base of infinite consciousness, the base of nothingness, the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception;

20.2.3.6

puthujjano dānaṃ dadeyya …pe…

could an ordinary person give a gift …pe…

20.2.3.7

cīvaraṃ dadeyya,

give a robe,

20.2.3.8

piṇḍapātaṃ dadeyya,

give almsfood,

20.2.3.9

senāsanaṃ dadeyya,

give lodging,

20.2.3.10

gilānapaccayabhesajjaparikkhāraṃ dadeyyāti?

give medicinal requisites for the sick?

20.2.3.11

Āmantā.

Yes.

20.2.3.12

Hañci puthujjano gilānapaccayabhesajjaparikkhāraṃ dadeyya, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If an ordinary person could give medicinal requisites for the sick, then indeed, sir, it should not be said:

20.2.3.13

“natthi puthujjanassa ñāṇan”ti.

“An ordinary person has no knowledge.”

20.2.4.1

Atthi puthujjanassa ñāṇanti?

“Does an ordinary person possess knowledge?”

Hetuvādin: If he can have insight, does he by that insight intuit the reality about Ill, eliminate its cause, realize its cessation, develop the Path going thereto? You admit that he does not. Therefore, etc.… .

20.2.4.2

Āmantā.

“Yes.”

Hetuvādin: If he can have insight, does he by that insight intuit the reality about Ill, eliminate its cause, realize its cessation, develop the Path going thereto? You admit that he does not. Therefore, etc.… .

20.2.4.3

Puthujjano tena ñāṇena dukkhaṃ parijānāti, samudayaṃ pajahati, nirodhaṃ sacchikaroti, maggaṃ bhāvetīti?

“Does an ordinary person, by means of that knowledge, fully understand suffering, abandon its origin, realize its cessation, and cultivate the path?”

Hetuvādin: If he can have insight, does he by that insight intuit the reality about Ill, eliminate its cause, realize its cessation, develop the Path going thereto? You admit that he does not. Therefore, etc.… .

20.2.4.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

“It should not be said thus …pe….”

Hetuvādin: If he can have insight, does he by that insight intuit the reality about Ill, eliminate its cause, realize its cessation, develop the Path going thereto? You admit that he does not. Therefore, etc.… .

20.2.4.5

Ñāṇakathā niṭṭhitā.

Discussion on Knowledge is finished.