Kathavatthu 3.10: Saṃvarakathā

3.10.1.1

Atthi devesu saṃvaroti?

Is there restraint among the devas?

Controverted Point: That there is self-control among devas.

Theravādin: Since you affirm its existence, you imply also that there may be absence of it among devas. You deny this, meaning that there is no want of it among devas. Then you imply that there is no need of self-control among them—this again you deny, by your proposition.

3.10.1.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.10.1.3

Atthi devesu asaṃvaroti?

Is there non-restraint among the devas?

3.10.1.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

3.10.2.1

Natthi devesu asaṃvaroti?

Is there no non-restraint among the devas?

3.10.2.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.10.2.3

Natthi devesu saṃvaroti?

Is there no restraint among the devas?

3.10.2.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

3.10.3.1

Nanu asaṃvarā saṃvaro sīlaṃ, atthi devesu saṃvaroti?

Is not virtue restraint from non-restraint, and is there restraint among the devas?

Granting that virtue is restraint from absence of self-restraint, does this restraint exist among devas? “Yes”, you say, but you are hereby implying also the coexistence of absence of self-restraint. And this you deny.

3.10.3.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.10.3.3

Atthi devesu asaṃvaro, yamhā asaṃvarā saṃvaro sīlanti?

Is there non-restraint among the devas, from which non-restraint restraint is virtue?

3.10.3.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

3.10.4.1

Ājānāhi niggahaṃ.

Acknowledge the refutation.

3.10.4.2

Hañci asaṃvarā saṃvaro sīlaṃ, atthi devesu saṃvaro, tena vata re vattabbe—

If virtue is restraint from non-restraint, and there is restraint among the devas, then surely it should be said—

3.10.4.3

“atthi devesu asaṃvaro, yamhā asaṃvarā saṃvaro sīlan”ti.

“There is non-restraint among the devas, from which non-restraint restraint is virtue.”

3.10.4.4

Yaṃ tattha vadesi—

That which you say there—

3.10.4.5

“vattabbe kho—

“It should indeed be said:

3.10.4.6

‘asaṃvarā saṃvaro sīlaṃ, atthi devesu saṃvaro’, no ca vattabbe—

‘Virtue is restraint from non-restraint, and there is restraint among the devas,’ but it should not be said:

3.10.4.7

‘atthi devesu asaṃvaro, yamhā asaṃvarā saṃvaro sīlan’”ti micchā.

‘There is non-restraint among the devas, from which non-restraint restraint is virtue’” is wrong.

3.10.5.1

No ce pana vattabbe—

If, however, it should not be said—

3.10.5.2

“atthi devesu asaṃvaro, yamhā asaṃvarā saṃvaro sīlan”ti, no ca vata re vattabbe—

“There is non-restraint among the devas, from which non-restraint restraint is virtue,” then surely it should not be said—

3.10.5.3

“asaṃvarā saṃvaro sīlaṃ, atthi devesu saṃvaro”ti.

“Virtue is restraint from non-restraint, and there is restraint among the devas.”

3.10.5.4

Yaṃ tattha vadesi—

That which you say there—

3.10.5.5

“vattabbe kho ‘asaṃvarā saṃvaro sīlaṃ, atthi devesu saṃvaro’, no ca vattabbe—

“It should indeed be said: ‘Virtue is restraint from non-restraint, and there is restraint among the devas,’ but it should not be said:

3.10.5.6

‘atthi devesu asaṃvaro, yamhā asaṃvarā saṃvaro sīlan’”ti micchā.

‘There is non-restraint among the devas, from which non-restraint restraint is virtue’” is wrong.

3.10.6.1

Atthi manussesu saṃvaro, atthi tattha asaṃvaroti?

There is restraint among humans; is there non-restraint there?

Yet you admit the coexistence among humans. Why not among devas? For instance, you say “devas abstain from taking life, from intoxicating drinks”. Yet you deny that these vices are found among them. You contend they are not found among them, yet you will not allow that restraint from them is not found either, although you allow the coexistence of both among men.

3.10.6.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.10.6.3

Atthi devesu saṃvaro, atthi tattha asaṃvaroti?

Is there restraint among the devas, and is there non-restraint there?

3.10.6.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

3.10.7.1

Atthi devesu saṃvaro, natthi tattha asaṃvaroti?

Is there restraint among the devas, and is there no non-restraint there?

3.10.7.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.10.7.3

Atthi manussesu saṃvaro, natthi tattha asaṃvaroti?

Is there restraint among humans, and is there no non-restraint there?

3.10.7.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

3.10.8.1

Atthi devesu pāṇātipātā veramaṇīti?

Is there abstention from taking life among the devas?

3.10.8.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.10.8.3

Atthi devesu pāṇātipātoti?

Is there taking of life among the devas?

3.10.8.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

3.10.9.1

Atthi devesu surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇīti?

Is there abstention from occasions of heedlessness due to fermented and distilled intoxicating drinks among the devas?

3.10.9.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.10.9.3

Atthi devesu surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānanti?

Are there occasions of heedlessness due to fermented and distilled intoxicating drinks among the devas?

3.10.9.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

3.10.10.1

Natthi devesu pāṇātipātoti?

Is there no taking of life among the devas?

3.10.10.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.10.10.3

Natthi devesu pāṇātipātā veramaṇīti?

Is there no abstention from taking life among the devas?

3.10.10.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

3.10.11.1

Natthi devesu surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānanti?

Are there no occasions of heedlessness due to fermented and distilled intoxicating drinks among the devas?

3.10.11.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.10.11.3

Natthi devesu surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇīti?

Is there no abstention from occasions of heedlessness due to fermented and distilled intoxicating drinks among the devas?

3.10.11.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

3.10.12.1

Atthi manussesu pāṇātipātā veramaṇi, atthi tattha pāṇātipātoti?

Is there abstention from taking life among humans, and is there taking of life there?

3.10.12.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.10.12.3

Atthi devesu pāṇātipātā veramaṇi, atthi tattha pāṇātipātoti?

Is there abstention from taking life among the devas, and is there taking of life there?

3.10.12.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

3.10.13.1

Atthi manussesu surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇi, atthi tattha surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānanti?

Is there abstention from occasions of heedlessness due to fermented and distilled intoxicating drinks among humans, and are there occasions of heedlessness due to fermented and distilled intoxicating drinks there?

3.10.13.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.10.13.3

Atthi devesu surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇi, atthi tattha surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānanti?

Is there abstention from occasions of heedlessness due to fermented and distilled intoxicating drinks among the devas, and are there occasions of heedlessness due to fermented and distilled intoxicating drinks there?

3.10.13.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

3.10.14.1

Atthi devesu pāṇātipātā veramaṇi, natthi tattha pāṇātipātoti?

Is there abstention from taking life among the devas, and is there no taking of life there?

3.10.14.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.10.14.3

Atthi manussesu pāṇātipātā veramaṇi, natthi tattha pāṇātipātoti?

Is there abstention from taking life among humans, and is there no taking of life there?

3.10.14.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

3.10.15.1

Atthi devesu surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇi, natthi tattha surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānanti?

Is there abstention from occasions of heedlessness due to fermented and distilled intoxicating drinks among the devas, and are there no occasions of heedlessness due to fermented and distilled intoxicating drinks there?

3.10.15.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.10.15.3

Atthi manussesu surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇi, natthi tattha surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānanti?

Is there abstention from occasions of heedlessness due to fermented and distilled intoxicating drinks among humans, and are there no occasions of heedlessness due to fermented and distilled intoxicating drinks there?

3.10.15.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

3.10.16.1

Natthi devesu saṃvaroti?

Is there no restraint among the devas?

Opponent: But if moral restraint is absent among devas, surely you are implying that all devas are takers of life, thieves, etc. They are not, hence, etc.… .

3.10.16.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Opponent: But if moral restraint is absent among devas, surely you are implying that all devas are takers of life, thieves, etc. They are not, hence, etc.… .

3.10.16.3

Sabbe devā pāṇātipātino adinnādāyino kāmesumicchācārino musāvādino surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhāyinoti?

Do all devas take life, take what is not given, engage in sexual misconduct, speak falsely, and indulge in occasions of heedlessness due to fermented and distilled intoxicating drinks?

Opponent: But if moral restraint is absent among devas, surely you are implying that all devas are takers of life, thieves, etc. They are not, hence, etc.… .

3.10.16.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

Opponent: But if moral restraint is absent among devas, surely you are implying that all devas are takers of life, thieves, etc. They are not, hence, etc.… .

3.10.16.5

tena hi atthi devesu saṃvaroti.

therefore, indeed, there is restraint among the devas.

Opponent: But if moral restraint is absent among devas, surely you are implying that all devas are takers of life, thieves, etc. They are not, hence, etc.… .

3.10.16.6

Saṃvarakathā niṭṭhitā.

The discussion of restraint is finished.