The Long Āgama Sūtra 28: 布吒婆樓經

28.1

（二八）佛說長阿含第三分布吒婆樓經第九

28. The Long Āgama Sūtra, Section Three: Poṭṭhapāda Sūtra, Ninth

Thus I have heard: One time, the Buddha was staying at Anāthapiṇḍada’s Park of Śrāvastī. He was accompanied by a large assembly of 1,250 monks.

28.2

如是我聞：

Thus have I heard:

28.3

一時，佛在舍衛國祇樹給孤獨園，與大比丘眾千二百五十人俱。

At one time the Buddha was staying in the country of Śrāvastī, at the Jetavana in Anāthapiṇḍada's park, together with a great assembly of one thousand two hundred and fifty bhikṣus.

28.4

爾時，世尊清旦著衣持鉢，入舍衛城乞食。時，世尊念言：「今日乞食，於時為早，今我寧可往至布吒婆樓梵志林中觀看，須時至當乞食。」爾時，世尊即詣梵志林中。

Then, at dawn, the Bhagavat put on his robes, took his bowl, and entered the city of Śrāvastī for piṇḍapāta. At that time the Bhagavat thought: "It is still too early for piṇḍapāta today; I might as well go to the park of the brahmacārin Poṭṭhapāda to look around, and go for piṇḍapāta when the time comes." Then the Bhagavat proceeded to the park of the brahmacārin.

At sunrise, the Buddha put on his robe and took his bowl into Śrāvastī to solicit alms. The Bhagavān thought, “It’s too early to solicit today’s alms. I’d better go see [Poṭṭhapāda] in the wanderers’ grove. I’ll solicit alms later when it’s the right time.” The Bhagavān then went to the wanderers’ grove.

28.5

時，布吒婆樓梵志遙見佛來，即起迎言：「善來，沙門瞿曇！久不來此，今以何緣而能屈顧？可前就座。」

Then the brahmacārin Poṭṭhapāda saw the Buddha coming from afar. He immediately rose to welcome him, saying: "Welcome, śramaṇa Gautama! It has been long since you last came here. What reason has brought you to favor us with a visit? Please come forward and take a seat."

The wanderer [Poṭṭhapāda] saw the Buddha coming from a distance and got up to greet him. “Welcome, ascetic Gautama! It’s been a long time! What brings you here today? You can prepare a seat in the front.”

28.6

爾時，世尊即就其座，告布吒婆樓曰：「汝等集此，何所作為？為何講說？」

Then the Bhagavat took the seat and said to Poṭṭhapāda: "What have you all gathered here to do? What have you been discussing?"

The Bhagavān then prepared his seat, asking [Poṭṭhapāda], “When you have meetings here, what do you do? What do you discuss?”

28.7

梵志白佛言：「世尊！昨日多有梵志、沙門、婆羅門集此婆羅門堂，說如是事，相違逆論。瞿曇！或有梵志作是說言：『人無因無緣而想生，無因無緣而想滅，想有去來，來則想生，去則想滅。』瞿曇！或有梵志作是說：『由命有想生，由命有想滅，彼想有去來，來則想生，去則想滅。』瞿曇！或有梵志作是說：『如先所言，無有是處。有大鬼神，有大威力，彼持想去，彼持想來，彼持想去則想滅，彼持想來則想生。』我因是故生念，念沙門瞿曇先知此義，必能善知想知滅定。」

The brahmacārin said to the Buddha: "Bhagavat, yesterday many brahmacārins, śramaṇas, and brāhmaṇas gathered in this brāhmaṇa hall and discussed these matters, debating conflicting views. Gautama, some brahmacārins spoke thus: 'Perceptions arise in a person without cause and without condition, and they cease without cause and without condition; perceptions come and go—when they come, perceptions arise, and when they go, perceptions cease.' Gautama, some brahmacārins spoke thus: 'Perceptions arise because of the life-principle, and perceptions cease because of the life-principle; those perceptions come and go—when they come, perceptions arise, and when they go, perceptions cease.' Gautama, some brahmacārins spoke thus: 'What was said before is not the case. There is a great spirit of great power; he carries perceptions away, and he brings perceptions here; when he carries them away, perceptions cease, and when he brings them here, perceptions arise.' Because of this, the thought occurred to me: 'The śramaṇa Gautama has previously known this meaning, and he must surely be able to know well the samādhi of the cessation of perception and feeling.'"

The wanderer told the Buddha, “Bhagavān, yesterday, there was a meeting of wanderers, ascetics, and priests at the priest’s meeting all. They discussed this subject with contradictory theories.

6.\ “Gautama, sometimes a wanderer would say, ‘A person’s conceptions arise without cause or condition, and they cease without cause or condition.’

“Gautama, sometimes a wanderer would say, ‘It’s because of the soul that conceptions arise, and they cease when it departs.’

“Gautama, sometimes a wanderer would say, ‘What was said before isn’t possible. There’s a great demon spirit who possesses great power. It takes conceptions away and brings conceptions with it. When it takes them away, one’s conceptions cease. When it brings them, one’s conceptions arise.’

“A thought occurred to me because of this. I thought, ‘The ascetic Gautama surely knows about this subject. Surely, he would know conceptions well and know about the attainment of cessation.’”

28.8

爾時，世尊告梵志曰：「彼諸論者皆有過咎。言無因無緣而有想生，無因無緣而有想滅，想有去來，來則想生，去則想滅。或言因命想生，因命想滅，想有去來，來則想生，去則想滅。或有言：『無有是處，有大鬼神，彼持想來，彼持想去，持來則想生，持去則想滅。』如此言者，皆有過咎。所以者何？梵志！有因緣而想生，有因緣而想滅。

Then the Bhagavat said to the brahmacārin: "All those disputants are mistaken. To say that perceptions arise without cause and without condition, that they cease without cause and without condition, and that perceptions come and go—arising when they come and ceasing when they go; or to say that perceptions arise due to the life-principle and cease due to the life-principle, coming and going—arising when they come and ceasing when they go; or to say, 'That is not the case; there is a great spirit who brings perceptions and takes perceptions away, so that when he brings them, perceptions arise, and when he takes them away, perceptions cease'—such statements are all mistaken. Why is that? Brahmacārin, it is with cause and condition that perceptions arise, and with cause and condition that perceptions cease.

The Bhagavān then told the wanderer, “Those theories have their defects. They say, ‘Conceptions arise without cause or condition and cease without cause or condition. Conceptions come and go. When they arrive, conceptions arise. When they depart, conceptions cease.’

“Sometimes, they say, ‘The soul is the cause of conceptions arising and the cause for them to cease. Conceptions come and go. When they arrive, conceptions arise. When they depart, conceptions cease.’

“Sometimes, they say, ‘That’s impossible. There’s a great demon spirit. It takes conceptions away and brings conceptions with it. When he takes them away, one’s conceptions cease. When he brings them, one’s conceptions arise.’ These statements all have their defects. Why is that? Wanderer, there are causes and conditions for conceptions to arise, and there are causes and conditions for conceptions to cease.

28.9

「若如來出現於世，至真、等正覺，十號具足，有人於佛法中出家為道，乃至滅五蓋覆蔽心者，除去欲、惡不善法，有覺、有觀，離生喜、樂，入初禪，先滅欲想，生喜、樂想。梵志！以此故知有因緣想生，有因緣想滅。滅有覺、觀，內喜、一心，無覺、無觀，定生喜、樂，入第二禪。梵志！彼初禪想滅，二禪想生，以是故知有因緣想滅，有因緣想生。捨喜修護，專念一心，自知身樂，賢聖所求，護念清淨，入三禪。梵志！彼二禪想滅，三禪想生，以是故知有因緣想滅，有因緣想生。捨苦捨樂，先滅憂喜，護念清淨，入第四禪。梵志！彼三禪想滅，四禪想生，以是故知有因緣想滅，有因緣想生。捨一切色想，滅恚，不念異想，入空處。梵志！一切色想滅，空處想生，以是故知有因緣想滅，有因緣想生。越一切空處，入識處。梵志！彼空處想滅，識處想生，故知有因緣想滅，有因緣想生。越一切識處，入不用處。梵志！彼識處想滅，不用處想生，以是故知有因緣想滅，有因緣想生。捨不用處，入有想無想處。梵志！彼不用處想滅，有想無想處想生，以是故知有因緣想滅，有因緣想生。彼捨有想無想處，入想知滅定。梵志！彼有想無想處想滅，入想知滅定，以是故知有因緣想生，有因緣想滅。彼得此想已，作是念：『有念為惡，無念為善。』彼作是念時，彼微妙想不滅，更麤想生。彼復念言：『我今寧可不為念行，不起思惟。』彼不為念行，不起思惟已，微妙想滅，麤想不生。彼不為念行，不起思惟，微妙想滅，麤想不生時，即入想知滅定。云何，梵志！汝從本已來，頗曾聞此次第滅想因緣不？」

"When a Tathāgata appears in the world—an arhat, a samyaksaṃbuddha, fully endowed with the ten epithets—someone goes forth into the homeless life to practice the path in the Buddha's Dharma, up to removing the five hindrances that shroud the mind. Casting aside desires and unwholesome phenomena, with applied thought and sustained thought, with joy and happiness born of seclusion, he enters the first dhyāna. First, the perception of desire ceases, and the perception of joy and happiness arises. Brahmacārin, from this it is known that with cause and condition perceptions arise, and with cause and condition perceptions cease. Ceasing applied and sustained thought, with internal joy and unification of mind, without applied thought and without sustained thought, with joy and happiness born of samādhi, he enters the second dhyāna. Brahmacārin, that perception of the first dhyāna ceases, and the perception of the second dhyāna arises; therefore it is known that with cause and condition perceptions cease, and with cause and condition perceptions arise. Abandoning joy, practicing mindfulness, single-minded and concentrated, experiencing physical happiness in himself—that which the noble ones seek—with purified mindfulness and equanimity, he enters the third dhyāna. Brahmacārin, that perception of the second dhyāna ceases, and the perception of the third dhyāna arises; therefore it is known that with cause and condition perceptions cease, and with cause and condition perceptions arise. Abandoning pleasure and abandoning pain, having previously eliminated sorrow and joy, with purified mindfulness and equanimity, he enters the fourth dhyāna. Brahmacārin, that perception of the third dhyāna ceases, and the perception of the fourth dhyāna arises; therefore it is known that with cause and condition perceptions cease, and with cause and condition perceptions arise. Abandoning all perceptions of form, extinguishing resentment, and not attending to diverse perceptions, he enters the sphere of infinite space. Brahmacārin, all perceptions of form cease, and the perception of the sphere of space arises; therefore it is known that with cause and condition perceptions cease, and with cause and condition perceptions arise. Transcending all spheres of space, he enters the sphere of infinite consciousness. Brahmacārin, that perception of the sphere of space ceases, and the perception of the sphere of consciousness arises; therefore it is known that with cause and condition perceptions cease, and with cause and condition perceptions arise. Transcending all spheres of consciousness, he enters the sphere of nothingness. Brahmacārin, that perception of the sphere of consciousness ceases, and the perception of the sphere of nothingness arises; therefore it is known that with cause and condition perceptions cease, and with cause and condition perceptions arise. Abandoning the sphere of nothingness, he enters the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. Brahmacārin, that perception of the sphere of nothingness ceases, and the perception of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception arises; therefore it is known that with cause and condition perceptions cease, and with cause and condition perceptions arise. Abandoning the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he enters the samādhi of the cessation of perception and feeling. Brahmacārin, that perception of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception ceases, and he enters the samādhi of the cessation of perception and feeling; therefore it is known that with cause and condition perceptions arise, and with cause and condition perceptions cease. Having attained this perception, he thinks: 'To have thought is bad; to have no thought is good.' When he thinks this, that subtle perception does not cease, and coarser perceptions arise instead. He thinks again: 'I had better not engage in thought-activity, and not arouse mental reflection.' When he does not engage in thought-activity and does not arouse mental reflection, the subtle perception ceases and coarse perceptions do not arise. When he does not engage in thought-activity and does not arouse mental reflection, and the subtle perception ceases while coarse perceptions do not arise, he immediately enters the samādhi of the cessation of perception and feeling. What do you think, brahmacārin? From the beginning until now, have you ever heard of such a sequential cessation of perceptions through cause and condition?"

“Suppose a Tathāgata arises in the world, an Arhat and Completely Awakened One who possesses the ten epithets. Someone leaves home for the path in the Buddha’s Dharma … ceases the five hindrances that obscure their mind. They abandon desires and bad and unskillful things. With perception and examination, that seclusion gives rise to joy and happiness, and they enter the first dhyāna.

“Their prior notions of desire cease, and notions of joy and happiness arise. Wanderer, we know because of this that there are causes and conditions for conceptions to arise, and cause and condition for conceptions to cease.

“That person ceases having perception or examination. They have an inner joy and unified mind without perception or examination. That samādhi gives rise to joy and happiness, and they enter the second dhyāna.

“Wanderer, that conception of the first dhyāna ceases, and the conception of the second dhyāna arises. We know as a result of this that there are causes and conditions for conceptions to cease and causes and conditions for conceptions to arise.

“Abandoning joy, they cultivate equanimity, focus their attention, and unify their mind. They perceive their own happiness to be that which the noble ones seek. Equanimous, mindful, and pure, they enter the third dhyāna.

“Wanderer, that conception of the second dhyāna ceases, and the conception of the third dhyāna arises. We know as a result of this that there are causes and conditions for conceptions to cease and causes and conditions for conceptions to arise.

“They abandon pain and abandon pleasure. Their previous sorrow and joy having ceased, they’re equanimous, mindful, and pure, and they enter the fourth dhyāna.

“Wanderer, that conception of the third dhyāna ceases, and the conception of the fourth dhyāna arises. We know as a result of this that there are causes and conditions for conceptions to cease and causes and conditions for conceptions to arise.

“They abandon all notions of form, cease [notions of] anger, don’t attend to other notions, and they enter the abode of space.

“Wanderer, all those notions of form cease, and the conception of the abode of space arises. We know as a result of this that there are causes and conditions for conceptions to cease and causes and conditions for conceptions to arise.

“They go entirely beyond the abode of space and enter the abode of consciousness.

“Wanderer, that conception of the abode of space ceases, and the conception of the abode of consciousness arises. We know as a result of this that there are causes and conditions for conceptions to cease and causes and conditions for conceptions to arise.

“They go entirely beyond the abode of consciousness and enter the abode of nothingness.

“Wanderer, that conception of the abode of consciousness ceases, and the conception of the abode of nothingness arises. We know as a result of this that there are causes and conditions for conceptions to cease and causes and conditions for conceptions to arise.

“They abandon the abode of nothingness and enter the abode with and without conception.

“Wanderer, their conception of the abode of consciousness ceases, and the conception of the abode with and without conception arises. We know as a result of this that there are causes and conditions for conceptions to cease and causes and conditions for conceptions to arise.

“They abandon the abode with and without conception and enter the conception that knows the attainment of cessation.

“Wanderer, their conception of the abode with and without conception ceases, and they enter the conception that knows the attainment of cessation. We know as a result of this that there are causes and conditions for conceptions to cease and causes and conditions for conceptions to arise.

“After they attain this conception, they think, ‘Having thoughts is bad, and having no thoughts is good.’ When they think that, there’s a subtle conception that doesn’t cease, and then a cruder conception arises. They again think, ‘Now, I’d rather not have any thought activity, for thinking to stop.’

“Once they don’t have any thought activity and stop thinking, that subtle conception ceases, and the cruder conception doesn’t arise. When they don’t have thought activity, thinking stops, that subtle conception ceases, and the cruder conception doesn’t arise, they then enter the conception that knows the attainment of cessation.

“How is it, wanderer? Up until now, have you ever heard the causes and conditions for this sequence of ceasing conceptions?”

28.10

梵志白佛言：「從本已來信自不聞如是次第滅想因緣。」又白佛言：「我今生念，謂此有想、此無想，或復有想此想已，彼作是念：『有念為惡，無念為善。』彼作是念時，微妙想不滅，麤想更生，彼復念言：『我今寧可不為念行，不起思惟。』彼不為念行，不起思惟已，微妙想滅，麤想不生。彼不為念行，不起思惟，微妙想滅，麤想不生時，即入想知滅定。」

The brahmacārin said to the Buddha: "From the beginning until now, I indeed have never heard of such a sequential cessation of perceptions through cause and condition." He said further to the Buddha: "Now the thought occurs to me: I considered this to be having perception and this to be non-perception; or having this perception, one thinks: 'To have thought is bad; to have no thought is good.' When one thinks this, the subtle perception does not cease, and coarser perceptions arise instead. One thinks again: 'I had better not engage in thought-activity, and not arouse mental reflection.' When one does not engage in thought-activity and does not arouse mental reflection, the subtle perception ceases and coarse perceptions do not arise. When one does not engage in thought-activity and does not arouse mental reflection, and the subtle perception ceases while coarse perceptions do not arise, one immediately enters the samādhi of the cessation of perception and feeling."

The wanderer said to the Buddha, “Up until now, I don’t believe I’ve heard the causes and conditions for such a sequence of ceasing conceptions.”

He also said to the Buddha, “Now, I have this thought: ‘Here, there’s a conception, then no conception, and perhaps there’s a conception again. A person thinks, “Having thoughts is bad, and having no thoughts is good.” When they think that, a subtle conception doesn’t cease, and a cruder conception arises.

“‘Again, they think, “Now, I’d better not have any thought activity and stop thinking.’ Once they don’t have any thought activity and stop thinking, that subtle conception ceases, and the cruder conception doesn’t arise. When they don’t have thought activity, stop thinking, the subtle conception ceases, and the cruder conception doesn’t arise, they then enter conception that knows the attainment of cessation.”

28.11

佛告梵志言：「善哉！善哉！此是賢聖法中次第想滅想定。」

The Buddha said to the brahmacārin: "Excellent, excellent! This is the samādhi of the sequential cessation of perception in the noble Dharma."

The Buddha told the wanderer, “Good, good! This is the sequence of ceasing conceptions in the noble teaching.”

28.12

梵志復白佛言：「此諸想中，何者為無上想？」

The brahmacārin said again to the Buddha: "Among these perceptions, which is the unexcelled perception?"

The wanderer again said to the Buddha, “Among these conceptions, which of them is the unsurpassed conception?”

28.13

佛告梵志：「不用處想為無上。」

The Buddha told the brahmacārin: "The perception of the sphere of nothingness is unexcelled."

The Buddha told the wanderer, “The conception of the abode of nothingness is unsurpassed.”

28.14

梵志又白佛言：「諸想中，何者為第一無上想？」

The brahmacārin said again to the Buddha: "Among all perceptions, which is the foremost, unexcelled perception?"

The wanderer also said to the Buddha, “Among conceptions, which is the supremely unsurpassed conception?”

28.15

佛言：「諸想、諸言無想，於其中間能次第得想知滅定者，是為第一無上想。」

The Buddha said: "Among all perceptions and all instances of non-perception, to be able to attain the samādhi of the cessation of perception and feeling in progressive sequence: this is the foremost, unexcelled perception."

The Buddha said, “The conception that knows the attainment of cessation, which is attained in a sequence from ‘having conception’ to ‘having no conception,’ is the supremely unsurpassed conception.”

28.16

梵志又問：「為一想，為多想？」

The brahmacārin asked again: "Is it a single perception, or many perceptions?"

The wanderer again asked, “Is it a single conception or many conceptions?”

28.17

佛言：「有一想，無多想。」

The Buddha said: "There is a single perception, not many perceptions."

The Buddha said, “It’s a single conception; it isn’t many conceptions.”

28.18

梵志又問：「先有想生然後智？先有智生然後想？為想、智一時俱生耶？」

The brahmacārin asked again: "Does perception arise first and then knowledge, or does knowledge arise first and then perception? Or do perception and knowledge arise simultaneously at the same time?"

The wanderer again asked, “Does the conception arise first and the knowledge afterward, does the knowledge arise first and the conception afterward, or do both the conception and the knowledge arise at the same time?”

28.19

佛言：「先有想生然後智，由想有智。」

The Buddha said: "Perception arises first and then knowledge; because of perception, there is knowledge."

The Buddha said, “The conception arises first and the knowledge afterward. That knowledge comes from the conception.”

28.20

梵志又問：「想即是我耶？」

The brahmacārin asked again: "Is perception the self?"

The wanderer again asked, “Is that conception the self?”

28.21

佛告梵志：「汝說何等人是我？」

The Buddha said to the brahmacārin: "What kind of person do you speak of as the self?"

The Buddha told the wanderer, “What type of person is the self in your teaching?”

28.22

梵志白佛言：「我不說人是我，我自說色身四大、六入，父母生育，乳餔成長，衣服莊嚴，無常、磨滅法，我說此人是我。」

The brahmacārin said to the Buddha: "I do not say that a person is the self. I say that the physical body made of the four great elements and the six sense bases, born of parents, nurtured with milk and raised, adorned with clothing, subject to impermanence and destruction—I say that this person is the self."

The wanderer said to the Buddha, “I don’t claim that a person is the self. My claim is about the form body of four elements and six senses that’s born, nurtured by parents, drinks milk until it’s grown, wears clothes and ornaments, and that’s an impermanent, eroding thing. I say this person is the self.”

28.23

佛告梵志：「汝言色身四大、六入，父母生育，乳餔長成，衣服莊嚴，無常、磨滅法，說此人是我。梵志！且置此我，但人想生、人想滅。」

The Buddha told the brahmacārin: "You say that the physical body made of the four great elements and the six sense bases, born of parents, nurtured with milk and raised, adorned with clothing, subject to impermanence and destruction—you say that this person is the self. Brahmacārin, let this self be set aside; it is merely that perceptions of a person arise and perceptions of a person cease."

The Buddha told the wanderer, “You say, ‘It’s the form body of four elements and six senses that’s born, nurtured by parents, drinks milk until it’s grown, wears clothes and ornaments, and that’s an impermanent, eroding thing. I say this person is the self.’ Wanderer, setting aside this self, this is just a concept of a person that arises and a concept of a person that ceases.”

28.24

梵志言：「我不說人是我，我說欲界天是我。」

The brahmacārin said: "I do not say that this person is the self; I say that a deva of the desire realm is the self."

The wanderer said, “Then I don’t say that that person is the self. I say that the gods of the desire realm are the self.”

28.25

佛言：「且置欲界天是我，但人想生、人想滅。」

The Buddha said: "Let a deva of the desire realm being the self be set aside; it is merely that perceptions of a person arise and perceptions of a person cease."

The Buddha said, “Setting aside the gods of the desire realm as self, this is just a concept of a person that arises and a concept of a person that ceases.”

28.26

梵志言：「我不說人是我，我自說色界天是我。」

The brahmacārin said: "I do not say that this person is the self; I say that a deva of the form realm is the self."

The wanderer said, “Then I don’t say that that person is the self. I say that the gods of the form realm are the self.”

28.27

佛言：「且置色界天是我，但人想生、人想滅。」

The Buddha said: "Let a deva of the form realm being the self be set aside; it is merely that perceptions of a person arise and perceptions of a person cease."

The Buddha said, “Setting aside the gods of the form realm as the self, this is just a concept of a person that arises, and a concept of a person that ceases.”

28.28

梵志言：「我不說人是我，我自說空處、識處、不用處、有想無想處、無色天是我。」

The brahmacārin said: "I do not say that this person is the self; I say that the sphere of space, the sphere of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, the formless devas are the self."

The wanderer said, “Then I don’t say that that person is the self. I say that the gods of abode of space … abode of consciousness … abode of nothingness … abode with and without conception of the formless realm are the self.”

28.29

佛言：「且置空處、識處、無所有處、有想無想處、無色天是我，但人想生、人想滅。」

The Buddha said: "Let the sphere of space, the sphere of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, the formless devas being the self be set aside; it is merely that perceptions of a person arise and perceptions of a person cease."

The Buddha said, “Setting aside the gods of the abode of space … abode of consciousness … abode of nothingness … abode with and without conception of the formless realm as the self, this is just a concept of a person that arises and a concept of a person that ceases.”

28.30

梵志白佛言：「云何，瞿曇！我寧可得知人想生、人想滅不？」

The brahmacārin said to the Buddha: "How is it, Gautama? Can I possibly come to know the arising of perceptions of a person and the ceasing of perceptions of a person?"

The wanderer said to the Buddha, “How is it, Gautama? How can I know the concept of a person that arises and the concept of a person that ceases?”

28.31

佛告梵志：「汝欲知人想生、人想滅者，甚難！甚難！所以者何？汝異見、異習、異忍、異受，依異法故。」

The Buddha told the brahmacārin: "For you to wish to know the arising of perceptions of a person and the ceasing of perceptions of a person is very difficult, very difficult! Why is that? Because you have different views, different training, different preferences, different acceptances, and rely upon a different teaching."

The Buddha told the wanderer, “You want to know the concept of a person that arises and the concept of a person that ceases? It’s very difficult! Very difficult! Why is that? You have a different view, different training, different tolerance, different experience, and rely on a different teaching.”

28.32

梵志白佛言：「如是。瞿曇！我異見、異習、異忍、異受，依異法故，欲知人想生、人想滅者，甚難！甚難！所以者何？我、世間有常，此實餘虛；我、世間無常，此實餘虛；我、世間有常無常，此實餘虛；我、世間非有常非無常，此實餘虛。我、世間有邊，此實餘虛；我、世間無邊，此實餘虛；我、世間有邊無邊，此實餘虛；我、世間非有邊非無邊，此實餘虛。是命是身，此實餘虛；命異身異，此實餘虛；身命非異非不異，此實餘虛；無命無身，此實餘虛。如來終，此實餘虛；如來不終，此實餘虛；如來終不終，此實餘虛；如來非終非不終，此實餘虛。」

The brahmacārin said to the Buddha: "It is so, Gautama. Because I have different views, different training, different preferences, different acceptances, and rely upon a different teaching, for me to wish to know the arising of perceptions of a person and the ceasing of perceptions of a person is very difficult, very difficult! Why is that? [Because I hold]: 'The self and the world are eternal—this is true, all else is false'; 'The self and the world are not eternal—this is true, all else is false'; 'The self and the world are both eternal and not eternal—this is true, all else is false'; 'The self and the world are neither eternal nor not eternal—this is true, all else is false.' 'The self and the world are finite—this is true, all else is false'; 'The self and the world are infinite—this is true, all else is false'; 'The self and the world are both finite and infinite—this is true, all else is false'; 'The self and the world are neither finite nor infinite—this is true, all else is false.' 'The life-principle is the body—this is true, all else is false'; 'The life-principle is one thing, the body is another—this is true, all else is false'; 'The body and the life-principle are neither different nor not different—this is true, all else is false'; 'There is no life-principle and no body—this is true, all else is false.' 'The Tathāgata exists after death—this is true, all else is false'; 'The Tathāgata does not exist after death—this is true, all else is false'; 'The Tathāgata both exists and does not exist after death—this is true, all else is false'; 'The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death—this is true, all else is false.'"

The wanderer said to the Buddha, “So it is, Gautama. I have a different view, different training, different tolerance, different experience, and rely on a different teaching, so my desire to know the concept of a person that arises and the concept of a person that ceases is very difficult. Very difficult. Why is that?

“‘Self and the world are permanent. This is true; anything else is false.’ ‘Self and the world are impermanent. This is true; anything else is false.’ ‘Self and the world are permanent and impermanent. This is true; anything else is false.’ ‘Self and the world are neither permanent nor impermanent. This is true; anything else is false.’

“‘Self and the world have limits. This is true; anything else is false.’ ‘Self and the world are limitless. This is true; anything else is false.’ ‘Self and world have limits and are limitless. This is true; anything else is false.’ ‘Self and the world are neither limited nor limitless. This is true; anything else is false.’

“‘The soul is the body. This is true; anything else is false.’ ‘The soul is one thing, and the body is another. This is true; anything else is false.’ ‘The body and soul are neither different nor not different. This is true; anything else is false.’ ‘There’s no soul and no body. This is true; anything else is false.’

“‘The Tathāgata dies. This is true; anything else is false.’ ‘The Tathāgata doesn’t die. This is true; anything else is false.’ ‘The Tathāgata dies and doesn’t die. This is true; anything else is false.’ ‘The Tathāgata neither dies nor doesn’t die. This is true; anything else is false.’”

28.33

佛告梵志：「世間有常，乃至如來非終非不終，我所不記。」

The Buddha told the brahmacārin: "From 'The world is eternal' up to 'The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death,' these are matters I do not declare."

The Buddha told the wanderer, “I don’t explain these views: ‘The [self and the] world are permanent … the Tathāgata neither dies nor doesn’t die.’”

28.34

梵志白佛言：「瞿曇！何故不記，我、世間有常，乃至如來非終非不終，盡不記耶？」

The brahmacārin said to the Buddha: "Gautama, for what reason do you not declare them? Why do you completely leave undeclared everything from 'The self and the world are eternal' up to 'The Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

The wanderer said to the Buddha, “Gautama, why don’t you explain the views: ‘Self and the world are permanent … The Tathāgata neither dies nor doesn’t die’? You don’t explain any of them?”

28.35

佛言：「此不與義合，不與法合，非梵行，非無欲，非無為，非寂滅，非止息，非正覺，非沙門，非泥洹，是故不記。」

The Buddha said: "These are not connected with the goal, not connected with the Dharma; they are not brahmacarya, do not lead to dispassion, do not lead to the unconditioned, do not lead to cessation, do not lead to peace, do not lead to right awakening, do not lead to the śramaṇa's state, and do not lead to nirvāṇa. Therefore, I do not declare them."

The Buddha said, “These views aren’t compatible with meaning or with the teaching, nor with the religious life, dispassion, the unconditioned, cessation, calming, right awakening, the ascetic, or Nirvāṇa. That’s why I don’t explain them.”

28.36

梵志又問：「云何為義合、法合？云何為梵行初？云何無為？云何無欲？云何寂滅？云何止息？云何正覺？云何沙門？云何泥洹？云何名記？」

The brahmacārin asked again: "What is accord with the goal and accord with the Dharma? What is the beginning of the brahmacarya? What is asaṃskṛta? What is desirelessness? What is peaceful extinction? What is cessation? What is right awakening? What is a śramaṇa? What is nirvāṇa? What is called an undeclared/declared statement?"

The wanderer again asked, “What is compatible with meaning and the teaching? What is the beginning of the religious life? What is the unconditioned? What is dispassion? What is cessation? What is calming? What is right awakening? What is the ascetic? What is Nirvāṇa? What do you call explanation?”

28.37

佛告梵志：「我記苦諦、苦集、苦滅、苦出要諦。所以者何？此是義合、法合，梵行初首、無欲、無為、寂滅、止息、正覺、沙門、泥洹，是故我記。」

The Buddha told the brahmacārin: "I declare the truth of suffering, the truth of the arising of suffering, the truth of the cessation of suffering, and the truth of the path of liberation from suffering. Why is that? This is in accord with the goal and in accord with the Dharma; it is the beginning of the brahmacarya, desirelessness, asaṃskṛta, peaceful extinction, cessation, right awakening, the śramaṇa, and nirvāṇa. Therefore, I declare it."

The Buddha told the wanderer, “I explain the truth of suffering … formation of suffering … cessation of suffering … the truth of the escape from suffering. Why is that? They are compatible with meaning and with the teaching, and they are the leaders of the religious life, dispassion, the unconditioned, cessation, calming, right awakening, the ascetic, and Nirvāṇa. This is why I explain them.”

28.38

爾時，世尊為梵志說法，示教利喜已，即從坐而去。

Then the Bhagavat expounded the Dharma to the brahmacārin, instructing, encouraging, benefiting, and gladdening him, and then rose from his seat and departed.

The Bhagavān then taught the Dharma for the wanderer. After he was encouraged by its plain instruction, the Buddha rose from his seat and left.

28.39

佛去未久，其後諸餘梵志語布吒婆樓梵志曰：「汝何故聽瞿曇沙門所說，語語印可？瞿曇言：『我及世間有常，乃至如來非終非不終，不與義合，故我不記。』汝何故印可是言？我等不可沙門瞿曇如是所說。」

Not long after the Buddha had left, the other brahmacārins said to the brahmacārin Poṭṭhapāda: "Why did you listen to what the śramaṇa Gautama said and approve every word? Gautama said: 'That the self and the world are eternal, and so forth up to the Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death, does not accord with the goal, and therefore I do not declare it.' Why did you approve these words? We do not agree with such statements by the śramaṇa Gautama."

28.40

布吒婆樓報諸梵志言：「沙門瞿曇所說：『我、世間有常，乃至如來非終非不終，不與義合，故我不記。』我亦不印可此言。但彼沙門瞿曇依法住，以法而言，以法出離，我當何由違此智言？沙門瞿曇如此微妙法言，不可違也。」

Poṭṭhapāda replied to the brahmacārins, saying: "The śramaṇa Gautama said: 'That the self and the world are eternal, and so forth up to the Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death, does not accord with the goal, and therefore I do not declare it.' I also did not approve those statements. But that śramaṇa Gautama abides by the Dharma, speaks in accordance with the Dharma, and brings about liberation through the Dharma; on what grounds should I contradict these wise words? Such subtle Dharma-words of the śramaṇa Gautama cannot be contradicted."

28.41

時，布吒婆樓梵志又於異時，共象首舍利弗詣世尊所，問訊已，一面坐。象首舍利弗禮佛而坐，梵志白佛言：「佛先在我所，時，去未久，其後諸餘梵志語我言：『汝何故聽沙門瞿曇所說，語語印可？瞿曇言：「我、世間常，乃至如來非終非不終，不合義，故不記。」汝何故印可是言？我等不可沙門瞿曇如是所說。』我報彼言：『沙門瞿曇所說：「我、世間有常，乃至如來非終非不終，不與義合，故我不記。」我亦不印可此言。但彼沙門瞿曇依法住法，以法而言，以法出離，我等何由違此智言？沙門瞿曇微妙法言，不可違也。』」

Then, on another occasion, the brahmacārin Poṭṭhapāda went with Hastika-Śāriputra to the Bhagavat's dwelling. Having exchanged greetings, he sat to one side. Hastika-Śāriputra paid homage to the Buddha and sat down. The brahmacārin said to the Buddha: "Earlier, the Buddha was at my place, and not long after you left, the other brahmacārins said to me: 'Why did you listen to what the śramaṇa Gautama said and approve every word? Gautama said: "That the self and the world are eternal, and so forth up to the Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death, does not accord with the goal, and therefore I do not declare it." Why did you approve these words? We do not agree with such statements by the śramaṇa Gautama.' I replied to them: 'The śramaṇa Gautama said: "That the self and the world are eternal, and so forth up to the Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death, does not accord with the goal, and therefore I do not declare it." I also did not approve those statements. But that śramaṇa Gautama abides by the Dharma in accordance with the Dharma, speaks in accordance with the Dharma, and brings about liberation through the Dharma; on what grounds should we contradict these wise words? The subtle Dharma-words of the śramaṇa Gautama cannot be contradicted.'"

Not long after the Buddha departed, some other wanderers said to the wanderer [Poṭṭhapāda], “Why were you listening to the teaching of that ascetic Gautama and approving of what he said? Gautama says, ‘“Self and the world is permanent … the Tathāgata neither dies nor doesn’t die” are incompatible with meaning … so I don’t explain them.’ Why did you approve of those words? We cannot have such discussions with the ascetic Gautama.”

[Poṭṭhapāda] replied to the wanderers, “The ascetic Gautama taught, ‘“Self and the world are permanent … the Tathāgata neither dies nor doesn’t die” aren’t compatible with the meaning … so I don’t explain them.’ I don’t approve of his words, either. It’s just that the ascetic Gautama lives relying on a teaching, so he speaks using that teaching. The escape uses this teaching, so why would I contradict his wise statement? A subtle Dharma statement like the ascetic Gautama’s can’t be contradicted.”

At a different time, the wanderer [Poṭṭhapāda] visited the Bhagavān with Hastikaśīrṣa Śāriputra. After exchanging greetings, he sat to one side. Hastikaśīrṣa Śāriputra bowed to the Buddha and sat, too.

The wanderer said to the Buddha, “When the Buddha paid us a visit before, the other wanderers said to me not long after you departed, ‘Why were you listening to what the ascetic Gautama teaches and approving of what he said? Gautama says, “‘Self and the world are permanent … the Tathāgata neither dies nor doesn’t die’ aren’t compatible with meaning … so I don’t explain them.” Why did you approve of those words? We cannot have such discussions with the ascetic Gautama.’

“I replied to them, ‘The ascetic Gautama does teach, “‘Self and the world are permanent … the Tathāgata neither dies nor doesn’t die’ aren’t compatible with the meaning … so I don’t explain them.’ I don’t approve of what he said, either. It’s just that the ascetic Gautama lives relying on a teaching, so he explains that teaching, and the escape uses this teaching, so why would I contradict his wise statement? A subtle Dharma statement like the ascetic Gautama’s can’t be contradicted.’”

28.42

佛告梵志曰：「諸梵志言：『汝何故聽沙門瞿曇所說，語語印可？』此言有咎。所以者何？我所說法，有決定記、不決定記。云何名不決定記？我、世間有常，乃至如來非終非不終，我亦說此言而不決定記。所以然者？此不與義合，不與法合，非梵行初，非無欲，非無為，非寂滅，非止息，非正覺，非沙門，非泥洹。是故，梵志！我雖說此言而不決定記。云何名為決定記？我記苦諦、苦集、苦滅、苦出要諦。所以者何？此與法合、義合，是梵行初首，無定無記。梵志！或有沙門、婆羅門於一處世間，無欲，無為，寂滅，止息，正覺，沙門，泥洹，是故我說決定記。

The Buddha told the brahmacārin: "When the brahmacārins said: 'Why did you listen to what the śramaṇa Gautama said and approve every word?'—there was fault in these words. Why is that? In the Dharma I teach, there are definitive declarations and non-definitive declarations. What are called non-definitive declarations? 'The self and the world are eternal,' and so forth up to 'the Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death'—I also state these propositions, but do not definitively declare them. Why is that? This does not accord with the goal, nor does it accord with the Dharma; it is not the beginning of the brahmacarya, not desirelessness, not asaṃskṛta, not peaceful extinction, not cessation, not right awakening, not the śramaṇa, not nirvāṇa. Therefore, brahmacārin, though I state these words, I do not definitively declare them. What are called definitive declarations? I declare the truth of suffering, the arising of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the path of liberation from suffering. Why is that? This accords with the Dharma and accords with the goal; it is the beginning of the brahmacarya, desirelessness, asaṃskṛta, peaceful extinction, cessation, right awakening, the śramaṇa, and nirvāṇa. Therefore, I teach them as definitive declarations.

The Buddha told the wanderer, “The wanderers asked, ‘Why were you listening to what the ascetic Gautama teaches and approving of what he said?’ It’s a mistake that they ask that. Why is that? The Dharma that I teach has a certain explanation and an uncertain explanation.

“What’s called the uncertain explanation? ‘Self and the world are permanent … the Tathāgata neither dies nor doesn’t die.’ I say these statements don’t have certain explanations. What’s the reason for this? They aren’t compatible with meaning or the teaching, nor with the beginning of the religious life, dispassion, the unconditioned, cessation, calming, right awakening, the ascetic, or Nirvāṇa. Why, wanderer, would I discuss these statements even though they don’t have certain explanations?

“What’s called the certain explanation? I explain the truth of suffering … formation of suffering … cessation of suffering … truth of the escape from suffering. Why is that? These things are compatible with the teaching and meaning. They are leaders of the religious life, dispassion, the unconditioned, cessation, calming, right awakening, the ascetic, and Nirvāṇa, so I teach these certain explanations.

28.43

「梵志！或有沙門、婆羅門於一處世間，一向說樂，我語彼言：『汝等審說，一處世間一向樂耶？』彼報我言：『如是。』我又語彼言：『汝知見一處世間一向樂耶？』彼答我言：『不知不見。』我復語彼言：『一處世間諸天一向樂，汝曾見不？』彼報我言：『不知不見。』又問彼言：『彼一處世間諸天，汝頗共坐起言語，精進修定不耶？』答我言：『不。』我又問彼言：『彼一處世間諸天一向樂者，頗曾來語汝言：「汝所行質直，當生彼一向樂天。我以所行質直，故得生彼共受樂。」耶？』彼答我言：『不也。』我又問彼言：『汝能於己身起心化作他四大身，身體具足，諸根無闕不？』彼答我言：『不能。』云何，梵志！彼沙門、婆羅門所言為是誠實，為應法不？」

"Brahmacārin, there are some śramaṇas and brāhmaṇas who, in regard to a single world, assert that it is exclusively pleasant. I say to them: 'Do you truly say that a single world is exclusively pleasant?' They reply to me: 'Yes.' I say to them again: 'Do you know or see that a single world is exclusively pleasant?' They answer me: 'We do not know, nor do we see it.' I say to them further: 'The devas of that single world are exclusively pleasant; have you ever seen them?' They reply to me: 'We do not know, nor have we seen them.' I ask them again: 'With those devas of that single world, have you ever sat, stood, conversed, and vigorously cultivated concentration?' They answer me: 'No.' I ask them again: 'Have those devas of that single world who are exclusively pleasant ever come to say to you: "Your practice is upright, and you will be born among those devas of exclusive pleasure. Because our practice was upright, we attained birth there and share in their pleasure"?' They answer me: 'No.' I ask them again: 'Are you able, within your own body, to arouse the thought to create another body of the four great elements, complete in limbs and lacking no sense faculties?' They answer me: 'We cannot.' What do you think, brahmacārin? Are the statements of those śramaṇas and brāhmaṇas truthful, or do they accord with the Dharma?"

“Wanderer, perhaps an ascetic or priest claims that there’s one abode of the world that’s the only way to happiness. I would say to him, ‘You truly say that there’s one abode in the world that’s the only way to happiness?’

“He replies to me, ‘Yes.’

“I again ask him, ‘Do you know and see this one abode in the world that’s the only way to happiness?’

“He answers me, ‘I don’t know or see it.’

“I again ask him, ‘Are the heavens that one abode in the world that’s the only way to happiness, which you’ve never seen?’

“He replies to me, ‘I don’t know or see it.’

“I again ask him, ‘Have you ever shared a seat, had a conversation, made effort, or cultivated samādhi with the gods of that one abode in the world?’

“He replies to me, ‘No.’

“I again ask him, ‘Do the gods of that one abode in the world that’s the only way to happiness come to tell you, “If you practice honestly, you’ll be born in the only way to heavenly happiness, for I practiced honestly and attained birth where they share that happiness’?”

“He answers me, ‘No.’

“I again ask him, ‘Are you able to produce a mind yourself that transforms into another body of the four elements, a body complete with flawless faculties?’

“He answers me, ‘I’m not able to do that.’

“How is it, wanderer? Would what that ascetic or priest say be honest? Would it be the Dharma?”

28.44

梵志白佛言：「此非誠實，為非法言。」

The brahmacārin said to the Buddha: "They are not truthful; they are unprincipled talk."

The wanderer said to the Buddha, “This is not honest, nor is it an expression of Dharma.”

28.45

佛告梵志：「如有人言：『我與彼端正女人交通。』稱讚婬女。餘人問言：『汝識彼女不？為在何處？東方、西方、南方、北方耶？』答曰：『不知。』又問：『汝知彼女所止土地、城邑、村落不？』答曰：『不知。』又問：『汝識彼女父母及其姓字不？』答曰：『不知。』又問：『汝知彼女為剎利女，為是婆羅門、居士、首陀羅女耶？』答曰：『不知。』又問：『汝知彼女為長短、麤細、黑白、好醜耶？』答曰：『不知。』云何，梵志！此人所說為誠實不？」

The Buddha told the brahmacārin: "It is just like a man who says: 'I have intercourse with that beautiful woman,' praising that alluring woman. Others ask him: 'Do you know that woman? Where is she—in the east, the west, the south, or the north?' He replies: 'I do not know.' They ask again: 'Do you know the country, town, or village where that woman lives?' He replies: 'I do not know.' They ask again: 'Do you know that woman's parents and her clan or name?' He replies: 'I do not know.' They ask again: 'Do you know whether that woman is a kṣatriya woman, a brāhmaṇa, a gṛhapati, or a śūdra woman?' He replies: 'I do not know.' They ask again: 'Do you know whether that woman is tall or short, stout or slender, dark or fair, beautiful or ugly?' He replies: 'I do not know.' What do you think, brahmacārin? Are this man's words truthful?"

The Buddha told the wanderer, “What if there’s someone who says, ‘I’ll have a relationship with a beautiful woman!’ He praises attractive women.

“Another person asks, ‘Do you know that woman? Where is she? To the east, west, south, or north?’

“He answers, ‘I don’t know.’

“Again, he’s asked, ‘Do you know which country, city, or town where she lives?’

“He answers, ‘I don’t know.’

“Again, he’s asked, ‘Do you know her parents or what her family name is?’

“He answers, ‘I don’t know.’

“Again, he’s asked, ‘Do you know if that woman is a warrior woman or a priest, householder, or worker woman?’

“He answers, ‘I don’t know.’

“Again, he’s asked, ‘Do you know if that woman is tall or short, crude or fine, dark or light, or beautiful or ugly?’

“He answers, ‘I don’t know.’

“How is it, wanderer? Would this person be speaking honestly?”

28.46

答曰：「不也。」

He replied: "No."

The wanderer answered, “No.”

28.47

「梵志！彼沙門、婆羅門亦復如是，無有真實。梵志！猶如有人立梯空地，餘人問言：『立梯用為？』答曰：『我欲上堂。』又問：『堂何所在？』答曰：『不知。』云何，梵志！彼立梯者豈非虛妄耶？」

"Brahmacārin, those śramaṇas and brāhmaṇas are just like this: they have no truth. Brahmacārin, it is like a man setting up a ladder in an empty field. Others ask him: 'What are you setting up a ladder for?' He replies: 'I want to climb up to a mansion.' They ask again: 'Where is the mansion?' He replies: 'I do not know.' What do you think, brahmacārin? Is not that person who sets up the ladder acting deludedly?"

“Wanderer, that ascetic or priest would be likewise. He isn’t being honest. Wanderer, it would be like someone who builds a ladder on empty ground. Someone else asks him, ‘What’s the purpose of building a ladder here?’

“He answers, ‘I want to ascend to the meeting hall.’

“Again, he’s asked, ‘Where’s this meeting hall?’

“He answers, ‘I don’t know.’

“How is it, wanderer? Wouldn’t building that ladder be based on a deception?”

28.48

答曰：「如是，彼實虛妄。」

He replied: "Indeed, he is truly deluded."

The wanderer answered, “Yes, it’s based on a deception.”

28.49

佛言：「諸沙門、婆羅門亦復如是，虛妄無實。」

The Buddha said: "Those śramaṇas and brāhmaṇas are just like this: deluded and without truth."

The Buddha said, “Those ascetics and priests are likewise. They are deceptive and not honest.”

28.50

佛告布吒婆樓：「汝言我身色四大、六入，父母生育，乳餔成長，衣服莊嚴，無常、磨滅，以此為我者。我說此為染汙，為清淨，為得解？汝意或謂染汙法不可滅，清淨法不可生，常在苦中。勿作是念。何以故？染汙法可滅盡，清淨法可出生，處安樂地，歡喜愛樂，專念一心，智慧增廣。梵志！我於欲界天、空處、識處、不用處、有想無想處天，說為染汙，亦說清淨，亦說得解。汝意或謂染汙法不可滅，清淨法不可生，常在苦中。勿作是念。所以者何？染汙可滅，淨法可生，處安樂地，歡喜愛樂，專念一心，智慧增廣。」

The Buddha told Poṭṭhapāda: "You said that one's body of form, the four great elements, and the six sense entrances—born of parents, raised on milk and food, adorned with clothing, impermanent and subject to destruction—is regarded as the self. Do I speak of this as defilement, as purification, or as the attainment of liberation? You might think that defiled dharmas cannot be eradicated, and purified dharmas cannot be produced, so that one remains constantly in suffering. Do not conceive such a thought. Why is that? Defiled dharmas can be completely eradicated, and purified dharmas can be produced, abiding in a place of peace and bliss, joyful and delighted, focused with single-mindedness, with wisdom expanding. Brahmacārin, with regard to the devas of the desire realm, the sphere of infinite space, the sphere of infinite consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, and the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, I speak of defilement, I also speak of purification, and I also speak of the attainment of liberation. You might think that defiled dharmas cannot be eradicated, and purified dharmas cannot be produced, so that one remains constantly in suffering. Do not conceive such a thought. Why is that? Defilement can be eradicated, pure dharmas can be produced, abiding in a place of peace and bliss, joyful and delighted, focused with single-mindedness, with wisdom expanding."

The Buddha addressed [Poṭṭhapāda], “You say that self is the body of four elements and six senses that’s born, nurtured by parents, drinks milk until it’s grown, wears clothes and ornaments, and which is an impermanent, eroding thing. You say this is the self, but I ask, ‘Is this defilement or purity, and does it attain freedom?’

“You might think that defilement cannot cease, that purity cannot arise, and that suffering is eternal, but don’t think that. Why is that? The cessation of defilement is possible, and the production of purity is possible. Dwelling in a place of well-being is joyful and delightful. By focusing attention and unifying one’s mind, wisdom increases and broadens.

“Wanderer, I say that the gods of the desire realm … form realm … abode of space … abode of consciousness … abode of nothingness … the abode with and without conception are defiled. I also say they are pure, and they attain freedom.

“You might think that defilement cannot cease, that purity cannot arise, and that suffering is eternal, but don’t think that. Why is that? The cessation of defilement is possible, and the production of purity is possible. Dwelling in a place of well-being is joyful and delightful. By focusing attention and unifying one’s mind, wisdom increases and broadens.

28.51

爾時，象首舍利弗白言：「世尊！當有欲界人身四大諸根時，復有欲界天身、色界天身，空處、識處、不用處、有想無想處天身，一時有不？世尊！當有欲界天身時，復有欲界人身四大諸根，及色界天身，空處、識處、無所有處、有想無想處天身，一時有不？世尊！當有色界天身時，復有欲界人身四大諸根，及色界天身，空處、識處、無所有處、有想無想處天身，一時有不？如是至有想無想處天身時，有欲界人身四大諸根，及欲界天身，色界天身，空處、識處、無所有處天身，一時有不？」

Then Hastika-Śāriputra said: "Bhagavat, when there is a human body of the desire realm with its four great elements and faculties, are there at the same time a deva body of the desire realm, a deva body of the form realm, and deva bodies of the sphere of infinite space, the sphere of infinite consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, and the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception? Bhagavat, when there is a deva body of the desire realm, are there at the same time a human body of the desire realm with its four great elements and faculties, a deva body of the form realm, and deva bodies of the sphere of infinite space, the sphere of infinite consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, and the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception? Bhagavat, when there is a deva body of the form realm, are there at the same time a human body of the desire realm with its four great elements and faculties, a deva body of the form realm, and deva bodies of the sphere of infinite space, the sphere of infinite consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, and the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception? And so on up to when there is a deva body of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, are there at the same time a human body of the desire realm with its four great elements and faculties, a deva body of the desire realm, a deva body of the form realm, and deva bodies of the sphere of infinite space, the sphere of infinite consciousness, and the sphere of nothingness?"

Hastikaśīrṣa Śāriputra then said, “Bhagavān, shouldn’t it be that when there’s the desire realm person’s body of four elements and faculties, there’s also at the same time the body of the desire realm gods … form realm gods … abode of space … abode of consciousness … abode of nothingness … the abode with and without conception gods?

“Bhagavān, shouldn’t it be that when there’s the body of the desire realm gods, there’s also at the same time the desire realm person’s body of four elements and faculties, body of the form realm gods, body of the abode of space … abode of consciousness … abode of nothingness … abode with and without conception gods?

“Bhagavān, shouldn’t it be that when there’s the body of the form realm gods, there’s also at the same time the desire realm person’s body of four elements and faculties, the body of the desire realm gods, body of the abode of space … abode of consciousness … abode of nothingness … abode with and without conception gods?

“… when there’s the body of the gods of the abode with and without conception, there’s also at the same time the desire realm person’s body of four elements and faculties, body of the desire realm gods, body of the form realm gods … abode of space … abode of consciousness … abode of nothingness … abode with and without conception?”