Kathavatthu 10.3: Pañcaviññāṇasamaṅgissamaggakathā

10.3.1.1

Pañcaviññāṇasamaṅgissa atthi maggabhāvanāti?

Does one endowed with the five consciousnesses have the development of the path?

Controverted Point: That one may develop the Path while enjoying the fivefold cognitions of sense.

10.3.1.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Controverted Point: That one may develop the Path while enjoying the fivefold cognitions of sense.

10.3.1.3

Nanu pañcaviññāṇā uppannavatthukā uppannārammaṇāti?

Do not the five consciousnesses have arisen physical bases and arisen objects?

Theravādin: But you will admit (i.) that the five kinds of sense-consciousness have a seat and an object that have already sprung up; (ii.) that their seat and object are antecedent; (iii.) that their seat is of the subject while their object is external, that seat and object are not yet broken up while operative; (iv.) that seat and object are of different varieties; (v.) that they do not enjoy mutually their respective ranges and fields; (vi.) that they come to pass not without co-ordinated application or attention; (vii.) that they are not unmixed; (viii.) are not without order in time; (ix.) are without order of contiguity; and (x.) without any ideation? Now if all this be true, your proposition cannot be true.

10.3.1.4

Āmantā.

Yes.

10.3.1.5

Hañci pañcaviññāṇā uppannavatthukā uppannārammaṇā, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If the five consciousnesses have arisen physical bases and arisen objects, then indeed, sir, it should not be said:

10.3.1.6

“pañcaviññāṇasamaṅgissa atthi maggabhāvanā”ti.

“One endowed with the five consciousnesses has the development of the path.”

10.3.2.1

Nanu pañcaviññāṇā purejātavatthukā purejātārammaṇā ajjhattikavatthukā bāhirārammaṇā asambhinnavatthukā asambhinnārammaṇā nānāvatthukā nānārammaṇā na aññamaññassa gocaravisayaṃ paccanubhonti, na asamannāhārā uppajjanti, na amanasikārā uppajjanti, na abbokiṇṇā uppajjanti, na apubbaṃ acarimaṃ uppajjanti, na aññamaññassa samanantarā uppajjanti, nanu pañcaviññāṇā anābhogāti?

Do not the five consciousnesses have pre-arisen physical bases and pre-arisen objects, internal physical bases and external objects, undisrupted physical bases and undisrupted objects, distinct physical bases and distinct objects, and they do not experience each other’s pasture and domain, do not arise without attention, do not arise without mental application, do not arise intermixed, do not arise neither before nor after, do not arise immediately after each other—are not the five consciousnesses without reflection?

10.3.2.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

10.3.2.3

Hañci pañcaviññāṇā anābhogā, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If the five consciousnesses are without reflection, then indeed, sir, it should not be said:

10.3.2.4

“pañcaviññāṇasamaṅgissa atthi maggabhāvanā”ti.

“One endowed with the five consciousnesses has the development of the path.”

10.3.3.1

Cakkhuviññāṇasamaṅgissa atthi maggabhāvanāti?

Does one endowed with eye-consciousness have the development of the path?

Consider visual consciousness and one of the Path-subjects—Emptiness—does the former come to pass concerning the latter? If you deny, you are opposing your thesis. If you assent, I ask whether it is right doctrine to say not only:

10.3.3.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Consider visual consciousness and one of the Path-subjects—Emptiness—does the former come to pass concerning the latter? If you deny, you are opposing your thesis. If you assent, I ask whether it is right doctrine to say not only:

10.3.3.3

Cakkhuviññāṇaṃ suññataṃ ārabbha uppajjatīti?

Does eye-consciousness arise with reference to emptiness?

Consider visual consciousness and one of the Path-subjects—Emptiness—does the former come to pass concerning the latter? If you deny, you are opposing your thesis. If you assent, I ask whether it is right doctrine to say not only:

10.3.3.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

Consider visual consciousness and one of the Path-subjects—Emptiness—does the former come to pass concerning the latter? If you deny, you are opposing your thesis. If you assent, I ask whether it is right doctrine to say not only:

10.3.3.5

cakkhuviññāṇaṃ suññataṃ ārabbha uppajjatīti?

does eye-consciousness arise with reference to emptiness?

Consider visual consciousness and one of the Path-subjects—Emptiness—does the former come to pass concerning the latter? If you deny, you are opposing your thesis. If you assent, I ask whether it is right doctrine to say not only:

10.3.3.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

Consider visual consciousness and one of the Path-subjects—Emptiness—does the former come to pass concerning the latter? If you deny, you are opposing your thesis. If you assent, I ask whether it is right doctrine to say not only:

10.3.3.7

Cakkhuñca paṭicca suññatañca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇanti?

Does eye-consciousness arise dependent on the eye and emptiness?

Because of the eye and Emptiness visual consciousness arises?

10.3.3.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

Because of the eye and Emptiness visual consciousness arises?

10.3.3.9

cakkhuñca paṭicca suññatañca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇanti?

does eye-consciousness arise dependent on the eye and emptiness?

Because of the eye and Emptiness visual consciousness arises?

10.3.3.10

Āmantā.

Yes.

Because of the eye and Emptiness visual consciousness arises?

10.3.3.11

“Cakkhuñca paṭicca suññatañca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇan”ti—

“Eye-consciousness arises dependent on the eye and emptiness”—

Is the Suttanta thus? Of course not.

10.3.3.12

attheva suttantoti?

is there such a sutta discourse?

Is the Suttanta thus? Of course not.

10.3.3.13

Natthi.

There is not.

Is the Suttanta thus? Of course not.

10.3.3.14

“Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇan”ti—

“Eye-consciousness arises dependent on the eye and material forms”—

Is the Suttanta thus? Of course not.

10.3.3.15

attheva suttantoti?

is there such a sutta discourse?

Is the Suttanta thus? Of course not.

10.3.3.16

Āmantā.

Yes.

Is the Suttanta thus? Of course not.

10.3.3.17

Hañci “cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇan”ti—

If “eye-consciousness arises dependent on the eye and material forms”—

Is the Suttanta thus? Of course not.

10.3.3.18

attheva suttanto, no ca vata re vattabbe—

such a sutta discourse does exist, then indeed, sir, it should not be said:

Is the Suttanta thus? Of course not.

10.3.3.19

“cakkhuñca paṭicca suññatañca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇan”ti.

“Eye-consciousness arises dependent on the eye and emptiness.”

Is the Suttanta thus? Of course not.

10.3.4.1

Cakkhuviññāṇasamaṅgissa atthi maggabhāvanāti?

Does one endowed with eye-consciousness have the development of the path?

Again, if your proposition be true, you must also affirm that visual consciousness arises concerning the past and the future. Also that it arises not solely because of visible object, but also concerning mental contact, feeling, perception, volition, thought, the organs of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and the objects of hearing, smell, taste, touch—impossible affirmations.

10.3.4.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Again, if your proposition be true, you must also affirm that visual consciousness arises concerning the past and the future. Also that it arises not solely because of visible object, but also concerning mental contact, feeling, perception, volition, thought, the organs of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and the objects of hearing, smell, taste, touch—impossible affirmations.

10.3.4.3

Cakkhuviññāṇaṃ atītānāgataṃ ārabbha uppajjatīti?

Does eye-consciousness arise with reference to the past and the future?

Again, if your proposition be true, you must also affirm that visual consciousness arises concerning the past and the future. Also that it arises not solely because of visible object, but also concerning mental contact, feeling, perception, volition, thought, the organs of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and the objects of hearing, smell, taste, touch—impossible affirmations.

10.3.4.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

Again, if your proposition be true, you must also affirm that visual consciousness arises concerning the past and the future. Also that it arises not solely because of visible object, but also concerning mental contact, feeling, perception, volition, thought, the organs of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and the objects of hearing, smell, taste, touch—impossible affirmations.

10.3.4.5

cakkhuviññāṇasamaṅgissa atthi maggabhāvanāti?

does one endowed with eye-consciousness have the development of the path?

Again, if your proposition be true, you must also affirm that visual consciousness arises concerning the past and the future. Also that it arises not solely because of visible object, but also concerning mental contact, feeling, perception, volition, thought, the organs of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and the objects of hearing, smell, taste, touch—impossible affirmations.

10.3.4.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

Again, if your proposition be true, you must also affirm that visual consciousness arises concerning the past and the future. Also that it arises not solely because of visible object, but also concerning mental contact, feeling, perception, volition, thought, the organs of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and the objects of hearing, smell, taste, touch—impossible affirmations.

10.3.4.7

Cakkhuviññāṇaṃ phassaṃ ārabbha …

Does eye-consciousness arise with reference to contact …

Again, if your proposition be true, you must also affirm that visual consciousness arises concerning the past and the future. Also that it arises not solely because of visible object, but also concerning mental contact, feeling, perception, volition, thought, the organs of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and the objects of hearing, smell, taste, touch—impossible affirmations.

10.3.4.8

vedanaṃ ārabbha …

with reference to feeling …

Again, if your proposition be true, you must also affirm that visual consciousness arises concerning the past and the future. Also that it arises not solely because of visible object, but also concerning mental contact, feeling, perception, volition, thought, the organs of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and the objects of hearing, smell, taste, touch—impossible affirmations.

10.3.4.9

saññaṃ ārabbha …

with reference to perception …

Again, if your proposition be true, you must also affirm that visual consciousness arises concerning the past and the future. Also that it arises not solely because of visible object, but also concerning mental contact, feeling, perception, volition, thought, the organs of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and the objects of hearing, smell, taste, touch—impossible affirmations.

10.3.4.10

cetanaṃ ārabbha …

with reference to intention …

Again, if your proposition be true, you must also affirm that visual consciousness arises concerning the past and the future. Also that it arises not solely because of visible object, but also concerning mental contact, feeling, perception, volition, thought, the organs of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and the objects of hearing, smell, taste, touch—impossible affirmations.

10.3.4.11

cittaṃ ārabbha …

with reference to mind …

Again, if your proposition be true, you must also affirm that visual consciousness arises concerning the past and the future. Also that it arises not solely because of visible object, but also concerning mental contact, feeling, perception, volition, thought, the organs of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and the objects of hearing, smell, taste, touch—impossible affirmations.

10.3.4.12

cakkhuṃ ārabbha …pe…

with reference to the eye …

Again, if your proposition be true, you must also affirm that visual consciousness arises concerning the past and the future. Also that it arises not solely because of visible object, but also concerning mental contact, feeling, perception, volition, thought, the organs of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and the objects of hearing, smell, taste, touch—impossible affirmations.

10.3.4.13

kāyaṃ ārabbha …pe…

with reference to the body …

Again, if your proposition be true, you must also affirm that visual consciousness arises concerning the past and the future. Also that it arises not solely because of visible object, but also concerning mental contact, feeling, perception, volition, thought, the organs of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and the objects of hearing, smell, taste, touch—impossible affirmations.

10.3.4.14

saddaṃ ārabbha …pe…

with reference to sound …

Again, if your proposition be true, you must also affirm that visual consciousness arises concerning the past and the future. Also that it arises not solely because of visible object, but also concerning mental contact, feeling, perception, volition, thought, the organs of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and the objects of hearing, smell, taste, touch—impossible affirmations.

10.3.4.15

phoṭṭhabbaṃ ārabbha uppajjatīti?

with reference to tangible object?

Again, if your proposition be true, you must also affirm that visual consciousness arises concerning the past and the future. Also that it arises not solely because of visible object, but also concerning mental contact, feeling, perception, volition, thought, the organs of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and the objects of hearing, smell, taste, touch—impossible affirmations.

10.3.4.16

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

Again, if your proposition be true, you must also affirm that visual consciousness arises concerning the past and the future. Also that it arises not solely because of visible object, but also concerning mental contact, feeling, perception, volition, thought, the organs of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, and the objects of hearing, smell, taste, touch—impossible affirmations.

10.3.5.1

Manoviññāṇasamaṅgissa atthi maggabhāvanā, manoviññāṇaṃ suññataṃ ārabbha uppajjatīti?

One endowed with mind-consciousness has development of the path, and mind-consciousness arises with reference to emptiness?

Now you can admit that representative (ideational) consciousness does arise concerning Emptiness, concerning the past and the future, concerning phases of mind, factors of experience, as stated just now.

10.3.5.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Now you can admit that representative (ideational) consciousness does arise concerning Emptiness, concerning the past and the future, concerning phases of mind, factors of experience, as stated just now.

10.3.5.3

Cakkhuviññāṇasamaṅgissa atthi maggabhāvanā, cakkhuviññāṇaṃ suññataṃ ārabbha uppajjatīti?

One endowed with eye-consciousness has development of the path, and eye-consciousness arises with reference to emptiness?

And one may develop a Path while enjoying representative cognition concerning any one of those matters, but not during the enjoyment of sense-consciousness, which as such is not concerned with them.

10.3.5.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

10.3.5.5

manoviññāṇasamaṅgissa atthi maggabhāvanā, manoviññāṇaṃ atītānāgataṃ ārabbha uppajjatīti?

One endowed with mind-consciousness has development of the path, and mind-consciousness arises with reference to the past and the future?

10.3.5.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

10.3.5.7

Cakkhuviññāṇasamaṅgissa atthi maggabhāvanā, cakkhuviññāṇaṃ atītānāgataṃ ārabbha uppajjatīti?

One endowed with eye-consciousness has development of the path, and eye-consciousness arises with reference to the past and the future?

10.3.5.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

10.3.5.9

manoviññāṇasamaṅgissa atthi maggabhāvanā, manoviññāṇaṃ phassaṃ ārabbha …

One endowed with mind-consciousness has development of the path, and mind-consciousness arises with reference to contact …

10.3.5.10

vedanaṃ ārabbha …pe…

with reference to feeling …

10.3.5.11

phoṭṭhabbaṃ ārabbha uppajjatīti?

with reference to tangible object?

10.3.5.12

Āmantā.

Yes.

10.3.5.13

Cakkhuviññāṇasamaṅgissa atthi maggabhāvanā, cakkhuviññāṇaṃ phassaṃ ārabbha …

One endowed with eye-consciousness has development of the path, and eye-consciousness arises with reference to contact …

10.3.5.14

vedanaṃ ārabbha …pe…

with reference to feeling …

10.3.5.15

phoṭṭhabbaṃ ārabbha uppajjatīti?

with reference to tangible object?

10.3.5.16

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

10.3.6.1

Na vattabbaṃ—

Should it not be said:

10.3.6.2

“pañcaviññāṇasamaṅgissa atthi maggabhāvanā”ti?

“One endowed with the five consciousnesses has development of the path”?

10.3.6.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

10.3.6.4

Nanu vuttaṃ bhagavatā—

Was it not said by the Blessed One:

Mahāsaṅghika: Well, but was it not said by the Exalted One:

10.3.6.5

“idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu cakkhunā rūpaṃ disvā na nimittaggāhī hoti nānubyañjanaggāhī …pe…

“Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu seeing material form with the eye does not grasp the signs, does not grasp the details …

“Here, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu sees an object with the eye, he does not grasp at the general characters nor at the details of it,… or hears a sound,… or smells,… tastes,… touches a tangible …”?

10.3.6.6

sotena saddaṃ sutvā …pe…

hearing a sound with the ear …

“Here, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu sees an object with the eye, he does not grasp at the general characters nor at the details of it,… or hears a sound,… or smells,… tastes,… touches a tangible …”?

10.3.6.7

ghānena gandhaṃ ghāyitvā …pe…

smelling an odor with the nose …

“Here, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu sees an object with the eye, he does not grasp at the general characters nor at the details of it,… or hears a sound,… or smells,… tastes,… touches a tangible …”?

10.3.6.8

jivhāya rasaṃ sāyitvā …pe…

tasting a flavor with the tongue …

“Here, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu sees an object with the eye, he does not grasp at the general characters nor at the details of it,… or hears a sound,… or smells,… tastes,… touches a tangible …”?

10.3.6.9

kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṃ phusitvā na nimittaggāhī hoti nānubyañjanaggāhī”ti.

experiencing a tangible object with the body, he does not grasp the signs, does not grasp the details”?

“Here, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu sees an object with the eye, he does not grasp at the general characters nor at the details of it,… or hears a sound,… or smells,… tastes,… touches a tangible …”?

10.3.6.10

Attheva suttantoti?

Is the discourse actually so?

Surely here there is Path-practice by one who is enjoying the five sorts of sense-consciousness? … .

10.3.6.11

Āmantā.

Yes.

Surely here there is Path-practice by one who is enjoying the five sorts of sense-consciousness? … .

10.3.6.12

Tena hi pañcaviññāṇasamaṅgissa atthi maggabhāvanāti.

Therefore, one endowed with the five consciousnesses has development of the path.

Surely here there is Path-practice by one who is enjoying the five sorts of sense-consciousness? … .

10.3.6.13

Pañcaviññāṇasamaṅgissa maggakathā niṭṭhitā.

The discussion on one endowed with the five consciousnesses is finished.