Kathavatthu 2.11: Nirodhakathā

2.11.1.1

Dve nirodhāti?

Are there two cessations?

Controverted Point: That there are two cessations of sorrow.

2.11.1.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Controverted Point: That there are two cessations of sorrow.

2.11.1.3

Dve dukkhanirodhāti?

Are there two cessations of suffering?

Theravādin: If you assert that there are two kinds of cessation, you must also assert this duality with respect to the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the nature of Ill, its cause, and the path leading to the cessation of Ill—to none of which you consent.

2.11.1.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

Theravādin: If you assert that there are two kinds of cessation, you must also assert this duality with respect to the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the nature of Ill, its cause, and the path leading to the cessation of Ill—to none of which you consent.

2.11.1.5

dve dukkhanirodhāti?

Are there two cessations of suffering?

Theravādin: If you assert that there are two kinds of cessation, you must also assert this duality with respect to the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the nature of Ill, its cause, and the path leading to the cessation of Ill—to none of which you consent.

2.11.1.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: If you assert that there are two kinds of cessation, you must also assert this duality with respect to the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the nature of Ill, its cause, and the path leading to the cessation of Ill—to none of which you consent.

2.11.1.7

Dve nirodhasaccānīti?

Are there two truths of cessation?

Theravādin: If you assert that there are two kinds of cessation, you must also assert this duality with respect to the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the nature of Ill, its cause, and the path leading to the cessation of Ill—to none of which you consent.

2.11.1.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

Theravādin: If you assert that there are two kinds of cessation, you must also assert this duality with respect to the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the nature of Ill, its cause, and the path leading to the cessation of Ill—to none of which you consent.

2.11.1.9

dve nirodhasaccānīti?

Are there two truths of cessation?

Theravādin: If you assert that there are two kinds of cessation, you must also assert this duality with respect to the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the nature of Ill, its cause, and the path leading to the cessation of Ill—to none of which you consent.

2.11.1.10

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: If you assert that there are two kinds of cessation, you must also assert this duality with respect to the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the nature of Ill, its cause, and the path leading to the cessation of Ill—to none of which you consent.

2.11.1.11

Dve dukkhasaccānīti?

Are there two truths of suffering?

Theravādin: If you assert that there are two kinds of cessation, you must also assert this duality with respect to the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the nature of Ill, its cause, and the path leading to the cessation of Ill—to none of which you consent.

2.11.1.12

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

Theravādin: If you assert that there are two kinds of cessation, you must also assert this duality with respect to the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the nature of Ill, its cause, and the path leading to the cessation of Ill—to none of which you consent.

2.11.1.13

dve nirodhasaccānīti?

Are there two truths of cessation?

Theravādin: If you assert that there are two kinds of cessation, you must also assert this duality with respect to the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the nature of Ill, its cause, and the path leading to the cessation of Ill—to none of which you consent.

2.11.1.14

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: If you assert that there are two kinds of cessation, you must also assert this duality with respect to the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the nature of Ill, its cause, and the path leading to the cessation of Ill—to none of which you consent.

2.11.1.15

Dve samudayasaccānīti?

Are there two truths of origination?

Theravādin: If you assert that there are two kinds of cessation, you must also assert this duality with respect to the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the nature of Ill, its cause, and the path leading to the cessation of Ill—to none of which you consent.

2.11.1.16

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

Theravādin: If you assert that there are two kinds of cessation, you must also assert this duality with respect to the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the nature of Ill, its cause, and the path leading to the cessation of Ill—to none of which you consent.

2.11.1.17

dve nirodhasaccānīti?

Are there two truths of cessation?

Theravādin: If you assert that there are two kinds of cessation, you must also assert this duality with respect to the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the nature of Ill, its cause, and the path leading to the cessation of Ill—to none of which you consent.

2.11.1.18

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: If you assert that there are two kinds of cessation, you must also assert this duality with respect to the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the nature of Ill, its cause, and the path leading to the cessation of Ill—to none of which you consent.

2.11.1.19

Dve maggasaccānīti?

Are there two truths of the path?

Theravādin: If you assert that there are two kinds of cessation, you must also assert this duality with respect to the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the nature of Ill, its cause, and the path leading to the cessation of Ill—to none of which you consent.

2.11.1.20

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

Theravādin: If you assert that there are two kinds of cessation, you must also assert this duality with respect to the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the cessation of Ill, the Truth about the nature of Ill, its cause, and the path leading to the cessation of Ill—to none of which you consent.

2.11.2.1

Dve nirodhasaccānīti?

Are there two truths of cessation?

Further, you must assert that there are two shelters, two retreats, two refuges, two supports, two deathlessnesses, two ambrosias, two Nibbānas—which you deny. Or if you admit that there are, say, two Nibbānas, you must admit some specific difference, say, of high, low, base, sublime, superior, inferior—some boundary, division, line or cleavage in these two Nibbānas—which you deny.

2.11.2.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

2.11.2.3

Dve tāṇāni …pe…

Are there two shelters? …

2.11.2.4

dve leṇāni …

two refuges? …

2.11.2.5

dve saraṇāni …

two protections? …

2.11.2.6

dve parāyaṇāni …

[Are there] two ultimate goals? …

2.11.2.7

dve accutāni …

[Are there] two imperishables? …

2.11.2.8

dve amatāni …

[Are there] two deathlesses? …

2.11.2.9

dve nibbānānīti?

[Are there] two unbindings?

2.11.2.10

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe…

2.11.3.1

Dve nibbānānīti?

[Are there] two unbindings?

2.11.3.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

2.11.3.3

Atthi dvinnaṃ nibbānānaṃ uccanīcatā hīnapaṇītatā ukkaṃsāvakaṃso sīmā vā bhedo vā rāji vā antarikā vāti?

Is there, between the two unbindings, a high and a low, an inferior and a superior, an elevation and a depression, a boundary, a division, a line, or an interval?

2.11.3.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe…

2.11.4.1

Dve nirodhāti?

Are there two cessations?

Further, you admit, do you not, that things which have ceased without deep reflection, may also be made to cease by deep reflection? But this does not involve two (final) cessations.

2.11.4.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Further, you admit, do you not, that things which have ceased without deep reflection, may also be made to cease by deep reflection? But this does not involve two (final) cessations.

2.11.4.3

Nanu appaṭisaṅkhāniruddhe saṅkhāre paṭisaṅkhā nirodhentīti?

Do they not, by reflection, cease volitional formations that have ceased without reflection?

Further, you admit, do you not, that things which have ceased without deep reflection, may also be made to cease by deep reflection? But this does not involve two (final) cessations.

2.11.4.4

Āmantā.

Yes.

Further, you admit, do you not, that things which have ceased without deep reflection, may also be made to cease by deep reflection? But this does not involve two (final) cessations.

2.11.4.5

Hañci appaṭisaṅkhāniruddhe saṅkhāre paṭisaṅkhā nirodhenti, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If they, by reflection, cease volitional formations that have ceased without reflection, then surely you should not say:

Further, you admit, do you not, that things which have ceased without deep reflection, may also be made to cease by deep reflection? But this does not involve two (final) cessations.

2.11.4.6

“dve nirodhā”ti.

“There are two cessations.”

Further, you admit, do you not, that things which have ceased without deep reflection, may also be made to cease by deep reflection? But this does not involve two (final) cessations.

2.11.5.1

Na vattabbaṃ—

Should it not be said:

Mahiṁsāsaka, Andhaka: Surely it does, if you admit, as do you not, that things which have ceased without, and those that have ceased by, deep reflection are both annihilated for ever?

2.11.5.2

“dve nirodhā”ti?

“There are two cessations”?

Mahiṁsāsaka, Andhaka: Surely it does, if you admit, as do you not, that things which have ceased without, and those that have ceased by, deep reflection are both annihilated for ever?

2.11.5.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

Mahiṁsāsaka, Andhaka: Surely it does, if you admit, as do you not, that things which have ceased without, and those that have ceased by, deep reflection are both annihilated for ever?

2.11.5.4

Nanu appaṭisaṅkhāniruddhāpi saṅkhārā accantabhaggā, paṭisaṅkhāniruddhāpi saṅkhārā accantabhaggāti?

Are not volitional formations that have ceased without reflection completely broken, and are not volitional formations that have ceased by reflection also completely broken?

Mahiṁsāsaka, Andhaka: Surely it does, if you admit, as do you not, that things which have ceased without, and those that have ceased by, deep reflection are both annihilated for ever?

2.11.5.5

Āmantā.

Yes.

Mahiṁsāsaka, Andhaka: Surely it does, if you admit, as do you not, that things which have ceased without, and those that have ceased by, deep reflection are both annihilated for ever?

2.11.5.6

Hañci appaṭisaṅkhāniruddhāpi saṅkhārā accantabhaggā, paṭisaṅkhāniruddhāpi saṅkhārā accantabhaggā, tena vata re vattabbe—

If volitional formations that have ceased without reflection are completely broken, and volitional formations that have ceased by reflection are also completely broken, then surely you should say:

Mahiṁsāsaka, Andhaka: Surely it does, if you admit, as do you not, that things which have ceased without, and those that have ceased by, deep reflection are both annihilated for ever?

2.11.5.7

“dve nirodhā”ti.

“There are two cessations.”

Mahiṁsāsaka, Andhaka: Surely it does, if you admit, as do you not, that things which have ceased without, and those that have ceased by, deep reflection are both annihilated for ever?

2.11.6.1

Dve nirodhāti?

Are there two cessations?

Theravādin: You admit that the latter class of things ceases because the Ariyan eightfold Path has been attained? Then must you also admit that the former class of things ceases for the same reason—but you do not.

2.11.6.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: You admit that the latter class of things ceases because the Ariyan eightfold Path has been attained? Then must you also admit that the former class of things ceases for the same reason—but you do not.

2.11.6.3

Paṭisaṅkhāniruddhāpi saṅkhārā ariyamaggaṃ āgamma niruddhāti?

Have volitional formations that have ceased by reflection ceased having come to the noble path?

Theravādin: You admit that the latter class of things ceases because the Ariyan eightfold Path has been attained? Then must you also admit that the former class of things ceases for the same reason—but you do not.

2.11.6.4

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: You admit that the latter class of things ceases because the Ariyan eightfold Path has been attained? Then must you also admit that the former class of things ceases for the same reason—but you do not.

2.11.6.5

Appaṭisaṅkhāniruddhā saṅkhārā ariyamaggaṃ āgamma niruddhāti?

Have volitional formations that have ceased without reflection ceased having come to the noble path?

Theravādin: You admit that the latter class of things ceases because the Ariyan eightfold Path has been attained? Then must you also admit that the former class of things ceases for the same reason—but you do not.

2.11.6.6

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Theravādin: You admit that the latter class of things ceases because the Ariyan eightfold Path has been attained? Then must you also admit that the former class of things ceases for the same reason—but you do not.

2.11.7.1

Dve nirodhāti?

Are there two cessations?

Again, the latter class (i.e., things which have ceased by deep reflection) does not, according to you, ever arise again. Then you must also admit this of the former class—but you do not … Hence cessation is really one, not two.

2.11.7.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Again, the latter class (i.e., things which have ceased by deep reflection) does not, according to you, ever arise again. Then you must also admit this of the former class—but you do not … Hence cessation is really one, not two.

2.11.7.3

Paṭisaṅkhāniruddhā saṅkhārā na puna uppajjantīti?

Do volitional formations that have ceased by reflection not arise again?

Again, the latter class (i.e., things which have ceased by deep reflection) does not, according to you, ever arise again. Then you must also admit this of the former class—but you do not … Hence cessation is really one, not two.

2.11.7.4

Āmantā.

Yes.

Again, the latter class (i.e., things which have ceased by deep reflection) does not, according to you, ever arise again. Then you must also admit this of the former class—but you do not … Hence cessation is really one, not two.

2.11.7.5

Appaṭisaṅkhāniruddhā saṅkhārā na puna uppajjantīti?

Do volitional formations that have ceased without reflection not arise again?

Again, the latter class (i.e., things which have ceased by deep reflection) does not, according to you, ever arise again. Then you must also admit this of the former class—but you do not … Hence cessation is really one, not two.

2.11.7.6

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Again, the latter class (i.e., things which have ceased by deep reflection) does not, according to you, ever arise again. Then you must also admit this of the former class—but you do not … Hence cessation is really one, not two.

2.11.7.7

tena hi na vattabbaṃ—

Therefore it should not be said:

Again, the latter class (i.e., things which have ceased by deep reflection) does not, according to you, ever arise again. Then you must also admit this of the former class—but you do not … Hence cessation is really one, not two.

2.11.7.8

“dve nirodhā”ti.

“There are two cessations.”

Again, the latter class (i.e., things which have ceased by deep reflection) does not, according to you, ever arise again. Then you must also admit this of the former class—but you do not … Hence cessation is really one, not two.

2.11.7.9

Nirodhakathā niṭṭhitā.

The discussion on cessation is finished.

2.11.7.10

Dutiyo vaggo.

The second chapter.

2.11.7.11

Tassuddānaṃ

Its summary verse:

2.11.8.1

Parūpahāro aññāṇaṃ,

Bestowal by another, ignorance,

2.11.8.2

kaṅkhā paravitāraṇā;

doubt, inducing by another;

2.11.8.3

Vacībhedo dukkhāhāro,

articulation of speech, food of suffering,

2.11.8.4

cittaṭṭhiti ca kukkuḷā;

duration of mind, and burning embers;

2.11.8.5

Anupubbābhisamayo,

gradual realization,

2.11.8.6

vohāro ca nirodhakoti.

conventional usage, and on cessation.