Kathavatthu 23.3: Issariyakāmakārikādikathā
Kathāvatthu 23.3
- Language
- Pāli
Contents
- 23.3.1 — 11 parts
- 23.3.2 — 8 parts
- 23.3.3 — 4 parts
- 23.3.4 — 11 parts
- 23.3.5 — 8 parts
- 23.3.6 — 13 parts
- 23.3.7 — 8 parts
- 23.3.8 — 5 parts
- 23.3.9 — 9 parts
Issariyakāmakārikādikathā
23.3.1.1
Bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu vinipātaṃ gacchatīti?
“Does a bodhisatta go to a realm of ruin by reason of exercising sovereign free will?”
Controverted Point: That a Bodhisat (or future Buddha) (a) goes to an evil doom, (b) enters a womb, (c) performs hard tasks, (d) works penance under alien teachers of his own accord and free will.
23.3.1.2
Āmantā.
Yes.
Controverted Point: That a Bodhisat (or future Buddha) (a) goes to an evil doom, (b) enters a womb, (c) performs hard tasks, (d) works penance under alien teachers of his own accord and free will.
23.3.1.3
Bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu nirayaṃ gacchati,
“Does a bodhisatta by reason of exercising sovereign free will go to hell,
Theravādin: (a) Do you mean that he so went and endured purgatory, the Sañjīva, Kālasutta, Tāpana, Patāpana, Sanghātaka, Roruva, and Avīchi hells? If you deny, how can you maintain your proposition? Can you quote me a Sutta to support this?
23.3.1.4
sañjīvaṃ gacchati,
go to Sañjīva,
23.3.1.5
kālasuttaṃ gacchati,
go to Kālasutta,
23.3.1.6
tāpanaṃ gacchati,
go to Tāpana,
23.3.1.7
mahātāpanaṃ gacchati,
go to Mahātāpana,
23.3.1.8
saṅghātakaṃ gacchati,
go to Saṅghāta,
23.3.1.9
roruvaṃ gacchati …pe…
go to Roruva …
23.3.1.10
avīciṃ gacchatīti?
go to Avīci?”
23.3.1.11
Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….
It should not be said thus …
23.3.2.1
Bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu vinipātaṃ gacchatīti?
“Does a bodhisatta go to a realm of ruin by reason of exercising sovereign free will?”
23.3.2.2
Āmantā.
Yes.
23.3.2.3
“Bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu vinipātaṃ gacchatī”ti—
“Is there such a Sutta discourse as:
23.3.2.4
attheva suttantoti?
‘A bodhisatta goes to a realm of ruin by reason of exercising sovereign free will’?”
23.3.2.5
Natthi.
There is not.
23.3.2.6
Hañci “bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu vinipātaṃ gacchatī”ti—
“If there is no Sutta discourse that:
23.3.2.7
nattheva suttanto, no ca vata re vattabbe—
‘A bodhisatta goes to a realm of ruin by reason of exercising sovereign free will,’ then indeed, sir, it should not be said:
23.3.2.8
“bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu vinipātaṃ gacchatī”ti.
‘A bodhisatta goes to a realm of ruin by reason of exercising sovereign free will.’”
23.3.3.1
Bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu gabbhaseyyaṃ okkamatīti?
“Does a bodhisatta enter the womb by reason of exercising sovereign free will?”
(b) You maintain that he entered the womb of his own free will. Do you also imply that he chose to be reborn in purgatory, or as an animal? That he possessed magic potency? You deny. I ask it again. You assent. Then did he practise the Four Steps to that potency—will, effort, thought, investigation? Neither can you quote me here a Sutta in justification.
23.3.3.2
Āmantā.
Yes.
23.3.3.3
Bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu nirayaṃ upapajjeyya, tiracchānayoniṃ upapajjeyyāti?
“Would a bodhisatta be reborn in hell or reborn in the animal realm by reason of exercising sovereign free will?”
23.3.3.4
Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….
It should not be said thus …
23.3.4.1
Bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu gabbhaseyyaṃ okkamatīti?
“Does a bodhisatta enter the womb by reason of exercising sovereign free will?”
23.3.4.2
Āmantā.
Yes.
23.3.4.3
Bodhisatto iddhimāti?
“Does a bodhisatta possess psychic potency?”
23.3.4.4
Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…
It should not be said thus …
23.3.4.5
bodhisatto iddhimāti?
“Does a bodhisatta possess psychic potency?”
23.3.4.6
Āmantā.
Yes.
23.3.4.7
Bodhisattena chandiddhipādo bhāvito …pe…
“Has the basis for psychic potency consisting of desire been developed by a bodhisatta …
23.3.4.8
vīriyiddhipādo …pe…
the basis for psychic potency consisting of energy …
23.3.4.9
cittiddhipādo …pe…
the basis for psychic potency consisting of consciousness …
23.3.4.10
vīmaṃsiddhipādo bhāvitoti?
has the basis for psychic potency consisting of investigation been developed?”
23.3.4.11
Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….
It should not be said thus …
23.3.5.1
Bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu gabbhaseyyaṃ okkamatīti?
“Does a bodhisatta enter the womb by reason of exercising sovereign free will?”
23.3.5.2
Āmantā.
Yes.
23.3.5.3
“Bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu gabbhaseyyaṃ okkamatī”ti—
“‘A bodhisatta enters the womb by reason of exercising sovereign free will’—
23.3.5.4
attheva suttantoti?
is there such a discourse?
23.3.5.5
Natthi.
There is not.
23.3.5.6
Hañci “bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu gabbhaseyyaṃ okkamatī”ti—
If “the bodhisatta enters the womb according to his own free will,”
23.3.5.7
nattheva suttanto, no ca vata re vattabbe—
there is no such discourse, surely then you should not say:
23.3.5.8
“bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu gabbhaseyyaṃ okkamatī”ti.
“The bodhisatta enters the womb according to his own free will.”
23.3.6.1
Bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu dukkarakārikaṃ akāsīti?
Did the bodhisatta practice austerities according to his own free will?
(c) You maintain further that the Bodhisat of his own free will performed that which was painful and hard to do. Do you thereby mean that he fell back on wrong views such as “the world is eternal”, etc., or “the world is finite”, etc., or “infinite”, etc., “soul and body are the same”,…“are different”, “the Tathāgata exists after death”, “does not exist”, “both so exists and does not”, “neither so exists nor does not”? Can you quote me a Sutta in justification?
23.3.6.2
Āmantā.
Yes.
23.3.6.3
Bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu “sassato loko”ti paccāgacchi,
Did the bodhisatta according to his own free will adopt the view that “the world is eternal”?
23.3.6.4
“asassato loko”ti …pe…
That “the world is not eternal” …pe…
23.3.6.5
“antavā loko”ti …pe…
that “the world is finite” …pe…
23.3.6.6
“anantavā loko”ti …
that “the world is infinite” …
23.3.6.7
“taṃ jīvaṃ taṃ sarīran”ti …
that “the soul and the body are the same” …
23.3.6.8
“aññaṃ jīvaṃ aññaṃ sarīran”ti …
that “the soul is one thing, the body another” …
23.3.6.9
“hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā”ti …
that “a Tathāgata exists after death” …
23.3.6.10
“na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā”ti …
that “a Tathāgata does not exist after death” …
23.3.6.11
“hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā”ti …pe…
that “a Tathāgata both exists and does not exist after death” …pe…
23.3.6.12
“neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā”ti paccāgacchīti?
did he adopt the view that “a Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death”?
23.3.6.13
Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….
It should not be said thus …pe….
23.3.7.1
Bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu dukkarakārikaṃ akāsīti?
Did the bodhisatta practice austerities according to his own free will?
23.3.7.2
Āmantā.
Yes.
23.3.7.3
“Bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu dukkarakārikaṃ akāsī”ti—
“The bodhisatta practiced austerities according to his own free will”—
23.3.7.4
attheva suttantoti?
is there such a discourse?
23.3.7.5
Natthi.
There is not.
23.3.7.6
Hañci “bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu dukkarakārikaṃ akāsī”ti—
If “the bodhisatta practiced austerities according to his own free will,”
23.3.7.7
nattheva suttanto, no ca vata re vattabbe—
there is no such discourse, surely then you should not say:
23.3.7.8
“bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu dukkarakārikaṃ akāsī”ti.
“The bodhisatta practiced austerities according to his own free will.”
23.3.8.1
Bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu aparantapaṃ akāsi, aññaṃ satthāraṃ uddisīti?
Did the bodhisatta, according to his own free will, follow others' austerities and take another as teacher?
(d) You maintain further that the Bodhisat of his own free will made a series of penances following alien teachers. Does this imply that he then held their views? Can you quote me a Sutta in justification? … .
23.3.8.2
Āmantā.
Yes.
23.3.8.3
Bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu “sassato loko”ti paccāgacchi …pe…
Did the bodhisatta according to his own free will adopt the view that “the world is eternal” …pe…
23.3.8.4
“neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā”ti paccāgacchīti?
did he adopt the view that “a Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death”?
23.3.8.5
Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….
It should not be said thus …pe….
23.3.9.1
Bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu aññaṃ satthāraṃ uddisīti?
Did the bodhisatta take another as teacher according to his own free will?
23.3.9.2
Āmantā.
Yes.
23.3.9.3
“Bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu aññaṃ satthāraṃ uddisī”ti—
“The bodhisatta took another as teacher according to his own free will”—
23.3.9.4
attheva suttantoti?
is there such a discourse?
23.3.9.5
Natthi.
There is not.
23.3.9.6
Hañci “bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu aññaṃ satthāraṃ uddisī”ti—
If “the bodhisatta took another as teacher according to his own free will,”
23.3.9.7
nattheva suttanto, no ca vata re vattabbe—
there is no such discourse, surely then you should not say:
23.3.9.8
“bodhisatto issariyakāmakārikāhetu aññaṃ satthāraṃ uddisī”ti.
“The bodhisatta took another as teacher according to his own free will.”
23.3.9.9
Issariyakāmakārikākathā niṭṭhitā.
The discussion on acting according to one's own free will is finished.
Translations (2)
- Points of Controversy, or Subjects of Discourse — Shwe Zan Aung & Caroline A. F. Rhys Davids 1915, English
- English (machine translation) — English, machine translation
Commentaries (2)
- Mūlaṭīkā — Ānanda (Vanaratana), Pāli
- Pañcappakaraṇaṭṭhakathā — Buddhaghosa, Pāli
Discussed in (2)
- Early Monastic Buddhism — Dutt 1941, English
- Buddhist Philosophy in India and Ceylon — Keith 1923, English