The Long Āgama Sūtra 7: 弊宿經

7.1

佛說長阿含經卷第七

The Long Āgama Sūtra, Fascicle Seven

Once, Kaumāra Kāśyapa traveled with five hundred monks to Kośala. They made their way to the priest town of Śvetikā. Kaumāra Kāśyapa then stopped at the rosewood grove to the north of town.

7.2

後秦弘始年佛陀耶舍共竺佛念譯

Translated during the Hongshi era of the Later Qin by Buddhayaśas together with Zhu Fonian

7.3

（七）第二分弊宿經第三

(7) Second Division: Pāyāsi Sūtra, the Third

7.4

爾時，童女迦葉與五百比丘遊行拘薩羅國，漸詣斯波醯婆羅門村，時，童女迦葉在斯波醯村北尸舍婆林止。時，有婆羅門名曰弊宿，止斯波醯村。此村豐樂，民人眾多，樹木繁茂，波斯匿王別封此村與婆羅門弊宿，以為梵分。弊宿婆羅門常懷異見，為人說言：「無有他世，亦無更生，無善惡報。」

At that time, Kumāra-Kāśyapa was wandering through the country of Kosala together with five hundred bhikṣus, gradually arriving at the brāhmaṇa village of Setavyā. Kumāra-Kāśyapa then stayed in the Śiṃśapā Grove north of Setavyā village. At that time, there was a brāhmaṇa named Pāyāsi who resided in Setavyā village. This village was affluent and pleasant, with a large population and luxuriant trees. King Pasenadi had separately granted this village to the brāhmaṇa Pāyāsi as a brahmadeya gift. The brāhmaṇa Pāyāsi constantly harbored deviant views, proclaiming to people: 'There is no other world, nor is there rebirth, nor is there fruit or retribution of good and evil deeds.'

There was a priest named Padāśva who lived in Śvetikā. The town was bountiful and happy, the people were numerous, and trees grew abundantly there. King Prasenajit had awarded this town to the priest Padāśva as his priestly due. This priest Padāśva constantly harbored unorthodox views, telling people, “There’s no other world, nor is their rebirth or the results of good and bad actions.”

7.5

時，斯波醯村人聞童女迦葉與五百比丘，從拘薩羅國漸至此尸舍婆林，自相謂言：「此童女迦葉有大名聞，已得羅漢，耆舊長宿，多聞廣博，聰明叡智，辯才應機，善於談論，今得見者，不亦善哉！」時，彼村人日日次第往詣迦葉。爾時，弊宿在高樓上，見其村人隊隊相隨，不知所趣，即問左右持蓋者言：「彼人何故群隊相隨？」

At that time, the people of Setavyā village heard that Kumāra-Kāśyapa, together with five hundred bhikṣus, having traveled from Kosala, had gradually arrived at this Śiṃśapā Grove. They said to one another: 'This Kumāra-Kāśyapa has great renown; he has already attained arhatship, is a venerable senior of great standing, extensively learned, intelligent, wise, possessing quick eloquence, and skillful in discourse. Would it not be excellent to go and see him now!' Then, day after day, the villagers went in succession to visit Kāśyapa. At that time, Pāyāsi was on a high terrace and saw his villagers going along in groups, not knowing where they were heading. He asked his attendant parasol-bearer: 'Why are those people going along in groups?'

When the people in Śvetikā heard that Kaumāra Kāśyapa had made his way with 500 monks from Kośala to the rosewood grove nearby, they said to each other, “This Kaumāra Kāśyapa is quite famous. He’s a senior elder who became an arhat. He’s widely educated, intelligent, and wise. He’s as eloquent as the situation requires and skilled in holding discussions. Wouldn’t it be good to meet him now?”

The townspeople visited Kāśyapa daily. At the time, Padāśva was up in his high tower. He saw droves of townspeople following each other but didn’t know where they were going. He asked his parasol-holders, “Why are those crowds of people following each other?”

7.6

侍者答曰：「我聞童女迦葉將五百比丘遊拘薩羅國，至尸舍婆林，又聞其人有大名稱，已得羅漢，耆舊長宿，多聞廣博，聰明叡智，辯才應機，善於談論；彼諸人等，群隊相隨，欲詣迦葉共相見耳。」

The attendant answered: 'I have heard that Kumāra-Kāśyapa, leading five hundred bhikṣus, has wandered through Kosala and reached the Śiṃśapā Grove. I have also heard that he has great renown, has attained arhatship, is an elder of great seniority, extensively learned, intelligent, wise, possessing quick eloquence, and skillful in discourse. Those people are going along in groups, wishing to go to Kāśyapa to see him together.'

His servants answered, “We’ve heard that Kaumāra Kāśyapa has made his way with 500 monks from Kośala to the rosewood grove nearby. We’ve also heard that he is quite famous. He’s a senior elder who became an arhat. He’s widely educated, intelligent, and wise. He’s as eloquent as the situation requires and skilled in holding discussions. Those people following each other in droves are going to see Kāśyapa.”

7.7

時，弊宿婆羅門即勅侍者：「汝速往語諸人：『且住！當共俱行，往與相見。』所以者何？彼人愚惑，欺誑世間，說有他世，言有更生，言有善惡報，而實無他世，亦無更生，無善惡報。」

Then the brāhmaṇa Pāyāsi instructed the attendant: 'Go quickly and tell those people: "Wait a moment! We should go together to see him." Why is this? That man is deluded and foolish, deceiving the world, saying that there is another world, that there is rebirth, and that there is retribution for good and evil, whereas in truth there is no other world, nor is there rebirth, nor is there retribution for good and evil.'

The priest Padāśva then gave a servant this order: “Quick, go tell those people, ‘Wait a minute! We’ll all go visit him together!’ Why is that? Those people are foolish, and he tricks the world. He says there’s another world, claims there’s rebirth, and says there are results of good and bad actions. Really, there’s no other world, no rebirth, and no results of good and bad actions.”

7.8

時，使者受教已，即往語彼斯婆醯村人言：「婆羅門語：『汝等且住！當共俱詣，往與相見。』」

Having received the instruction, the messenger immediately went and said to the people of Setavyā village: 'The brāhmaṇa says: "Wait a moment! You should go together with him to visit and see him."'"

Accepting his instructions, the servant went and told the people of Śvetikā: ‘The priest says, ‘Wait a minute! We’ll all go visit him together!’”

7.9

村人答曰「善哉！善哉！若能來者，當共俱行。」

The villagers replied: 'Very good! Very good! If he can come, we will go together.'

The townspeople replied, “Good, good! If he’s coming, we’ll go with him!”

7.10

使還尋白：「彼人已住，可行者行。」

The messenger returned and reported at once: 'Those people have halted; you may set out when ready.'

The servant returned quickly and said, “The people are waiting to go with you.”

7.11

時，婆羅門即下高樓，勅侍者嚴駕，與彼村人前後圍遶，詣舍婆林，到已下車，步進詣迦葉所，問訊訖，一面坐；其彼村人婆羅門、居士，有禮拜迦葉然後坐者，有問訊已而坐者，有自稱名已而坐者，有叉手已而坐者，有默而坐者。時，弊宿婆羅門語童女迦葉言：「今我欲有所問，寧有閑暇見聽許不？」

Then the brāhmaṇa came down from the high terrace, ordered his attendants to prepare his carriage, and, surrounded before and behind by the villagers, set out for the Śiṃśapā Grove. Arriving there, he descended from the carriage and walked up to Kāśyapa's location. After exchanging greetings, he sat to one side. Among the brāhmaṇas and gṛhapatis of the village, some bowed to Kāśyapa before sitting down, some sat after exchanging greetings, some announced their names before sitting down, some clasped their hands before sitting down, and some sat down in silence. Then the brāhmaṇa Pāyāsi said to Kumāra-Kāśyapa: 'Now I wish to ask a question. Would you have the leisure to grant me an audience and permit it?'

The priest descended from his high tower and ordered his servant to ready horses. He then accompanied the townspeople, who surrounded him in front and back, to the rosewood grove. When they arrived, his dismounted from his chariot and proceeded on foot to Kāśyapa. After they exchanged greetings, he sat to one side. Some of the priests and householders of the town venerated Kāśyapa and sat down. Some of them exchanged greetings with him and sat down. Some of them told him their names and sat down. Some of them saluted him and sat down. Some of them remained silent and sat down.

The priest Padāśva then said to Kaumāra Kāśyapa, “Now, if you have a moment, I’d like to ask a question. May I?”

7.12

迦葉報曰：「隨汝所問，聞已當知。」

Kāśyapa replied: 'Ask whatever you wish; having heard it, I shall know.'

Kāśyapa replied, “I’ll listen to whatever questions you have and explain it.”

7.13

婆羅門言：「今我論者，無有他世，亦無更生，無罪福報，汝論云何？」

The brāhmaṇa said: 'In my view, there is no other world, nor is there rebirth, nor is there retribution for sin or merit. What is your view?'

The priest asked, “Now, I have the position that there’s no other world, no rebirth, and no results of misdeeds and merits. What’s your position on this?”

7.14

迦葉答曰：「我今問汝，隨汝意答，今上日月，為此世耶？為他世耶？為人、為天耶？」

Kāśyapa replied: 'I now ask you in turn, answer according to your view: Are the sun and moon up above in this world or in another world? Are they humans or are they devas?'

Kāśyapa answered, “I’ll ask you a question. Tell me what you think. Now, are the sun and moon of this world or another world? Are they humans or gods?”

7.15

婆羅門答曰：「日月是他世，非此世也。是天，非人。」

The brāhmaṇa replied: 'The sun and moon belong to another world, not to this world. They are devas, not humans.'

The priest answered, “The sun and moon are of another world, not this world. They are gods, not humans.”

7.16

迦葉答曰：「以此可知，必有他世，亦有更生，有善惡報。」

Kāśyapa replied: 'From this it can be known that there must be another world, that there is rebirth, and that there is retribution for good and evil.'

Kāśyapa said, “We know in this way there’s surely another world, there’s rebirth, and there’s good and bad results of actions.”

7.17

婆羅門言：「汝雖云有他世，有更生及善惡報，如我意者，皆悉無有。」

The brāhmaṇa said: 'Although you say there is another world, that there is rebirth, and that there is retribution for good and evil, according to my opinion, none of these exists.'

The priest said, “Although you say how there’s another world, rebirth, and good and bad results of actions, none of these exist in my way of thinking.”

7.18

迦葉問曰：「頗有因緣，可知無有他世，無有更生，無善惡報耶？」

Kāśyapa asked: 'Is there any reason or evidence by which one can know that there is no other world, no rebirth, and no retribution for good and evil?'

Kāśyapa asked, “Are there any causes and conditions by which we can know there isn’t another world, no rebirth, and no good and bad results of actions?”

7.19

婆羅門答曰：「有緣！」

The brāhmaṇa replied: 'There is a reason!'

The priest answered, “There is.”

7.20

迦葉問曰：「以何因緣，言無他世？」

Kāśyapa asked: 'By what reason do you say that there is no other world?'

Kāśyapa asked, “What’s the cause or condition for you say, ‘There isn’t another world’?

7.21

婆羅門言：「迦葉！我有親族知識，遇患困病，我往問言：『諸沙門、婆羅門各懷異見，言諸有殺生、盜竊、邪婬、兩舌、惡口、妄言、綺語、貪取、嫉妬、邪見者，身壞命終，皆入地獄。我初不信，所以然者？初未曾見死已來還，說所墮處。若有人來說所墮處，我必信受。汝今是我所親，十惡亦備，若如沙門語者，汝死必入大地獄中，今我相信，從汝取定，若審有地獄者，汝當還來，語我使知，然後當信。』迦葉！彼命終已，至今不來，彼是我親，不應欺我，許而不來，必無後世。」

The brāhmaṇa said, “Kāśyapa! I had a relative and friend who fell gravely ill. I went to him and said, ‘Various śramaṇas and brāhmaṇas cherish differing views, saying that all those who kill living beings, steal, engage in sexual misconduct, are double-tongued, speak harshly, tell lies, use frivolous speech, are covetous, jealous, and hold wrong views, will upon the breakup of the body and the end of life all enter hell. At first I did not believe it. Why so? Because I had never seen anyone return after death and speak of the place into which they had fallen. If someone were to come and describe the place into which they had fallen, I would certainly believe and accept it. Now, you are my relative, and you have committed all the ten evils. If it is as the śramaṇas say, upon your death you will surely enter the great hells. Now I place my trust in you, to obtain certainty from you. If there truly is a hell, you must come back and tell me so that I know; only then will I believe.’ Kāśyapa! He has ended his life and has not come to this day. He was my relative and would not deceive me. Having promised yet not returned, there must surely be no next world.”

The priest said, “Kāśyapa, I had a relative who fell seriously ill. I went and said to him, ‘Ascetics and priests each hold unorthodox views. They say that someone who kills beings, steals, engages in wrong sex, speaks duplicitously, uses harsh words, speaks falsely, speaks frivolously, or is greedy, jealous, and has wrong views will go to Hell when their body breaks up and their life ends. From the start, I haven’t believed this. Why is that? To begin with, I’ve never seen anyone return after dying, though it’s claimed they fall somewhere. If someone were to come back and say where they fell, I would certainly believe it. Now, you are a friend of mine who has done the ten bad deeds. If it’s as the ascetics say, you’ll surely go to a great Hell when you die. We trust each other, and I’d certainly accept what I heard from you. If you discover there is a hell, you should return and tell me about it. Then, I’ll believe it.’

“Kāśyapa, my relative hasn’t come back to me since their life ended. They were my friend; they wouldn’t have lied to me. They agreed, but they didn’t come back. Surely, there’s no afterlife.”

7.22

迦葉報曰：「諸有智者，以譬喻得解，今當為汝引喻解之。譬如盜賊，常懷姧詐，犯王禁法，伺察所得，將詣王所，白言：『此人為賊，願王治之。』王即勅左右，收繫其人，遍令街巷，然後載之，出城付刑人者；時，左右人即將彼賊，付刑人者，彼賊以柔輭言，語守衛者：『汝可放我，見諸親里，言語辭別，然後當還。』云何，婆羅門！彼守衛者寧肯放不？」

Kāśyapa replied, “Those who possess wisdom attain understanding through parables. Now I will give a simile for you to explain it. Suppose there was a thief who was constantly deceitful and broke the king’s laws. Detected and apprehended, he was brought before the king, and they reported, ‘This man is a thief; may the king punish him.’ The king then ordered his attendants to arrest and bind the man, parade him through the streets and lanes, and then load him up and take him outside the city to deliver him to the executioner. Then the attendants led that thief and handed him over to the executioner. That thief, using soft words, said to the guards, ‘Could you release me so that I may see my relatives, speak with them, and take my leave, after which I shall return?’ What do you think, brāhmaṇa? Would those guards be willing to let him go?”

Kāśyapa responded, “Those who are wise explain things with parables. Now, I’ll explain this for you with a story. Once, there was a thief who was constantly making schemes and breaking the king’s laws. He was hunted down, and an officer brought him to the king. ‘This man is a thief. Please let the king judge him.’

“The king ordered his men, ‘Tie that man up and announce his crime throughout the city. After that, carry him out of the city and execute him.’

“The thief spoke to his guards in a gentle voice, ‘You could let me go see my relatives and bid them farewell. I’ll return after I’m done.’ How would it be, priest? Would those guards let him go?”

7.23

婆羅門答曰：「不可！」

The brāhmaṇa replied, “No!”

The priest replied, “They couldn’t!”

7.24

迦葉又言：「彼同人類，俱存現世，而猶不放，況汝所親，十惡備足，身死命終，必入地獄，獄鬼無慈，又非其類，死生異世，彼若以輭言求於獄鬼：『汝暫放我，還到世間，見親族言語辭別，然後當還。』寧得放不？」

Kāśyapa said again, “They are of the same human kind and both exist in the present world, yet still they would not release him. How much less so for your relative! Having fully committed all ten evils, upon his death and the end of his life he must enter hell. The hell-wardens have no compassion; moreover, they are not of his kind, and life and death belong to different realms. If he were to plead with the hell-wardens in gentle words, saying, ‘Temporarily release me to return to the human realm, to see my kin, speak with them, and take my leave, and then I will return,’ would he be released?”

Kāśyapa continued, “The same type of person exists in the present world, but they aren’t released. How could your friend who had done the ten evil deeds return? He surely went to Hell when his body broke up and his life ended. The demons in Hell have no mercy. They’re inhuman, and the dead are born in a different world. Suppose someone spoke to those demons of Hell with gentle words, ‘Please let me go for a little while to return to the world and say farewell to my friend. I’ll return after I’m done.’ Would they release him?”

7.25

婆羅門答曰：「不可！」

The brāhmaṇa replied, “No!”

The priest answered, “They couldn’t!”

7.26

迦葉又言：「以此相方，自足可知，何為守迷，自生邪見耶？」

Kāśyapa said again, “Comparing this case, it is naturally clear enough. Why do you hold on to delusion and engender wrong views yourself?”

Kāśyapa also said, “In this way, there’s enough for us to know [there’s another world]. How can you hold to this delusion and create these wrong views for yourself?”

7.27

婆羅門言：「汝雖引喻，謂有他世，我猶言無。」

The brāhmaṇa said, “Though you have drawn a simile claiming there is a next world, I still say there is none.”

The priest said, “Although you’ve told this story to show there’s another world, I still say there isn’t one.”

7.28

迦葉復言：「汝頗更有餘緣，可知無他世耶？」

Kāśyapa said further, “Do you have any other reason by which it can be known that there is no next world?”

Kāśyapa again asked, “Do you have some other reason for knowing there isn’t another world?”

7.29

婆羅門報言：「我更有餘緣，知無他世。」

The brāhmaṇa replied, “I have another reason to know that there is no next world.”

The priest responded, “I have another reason that I know there isn’t another world.”

7.30

迦葉問曰：「以何緣知？」

Kāśyapa asked, “By what reason do you know it?”

Kāśyapa asked, “What’s the reason you know this?”

7.31

答曰：「迦葉！我有親族，遇患篤重，我往語言：『諸沙門、婆羅門各懷異見，說有他世，言不殺、不盜、不婬、不欺，不兩舌、惡口、妄言、綺語、貪取、嫉妬、邪見者，身壞命終，皆生天上；我初不信，所以然者？初未曾見死已來還，說所墮處。若有人來說所墮生，我必信耳；今汝是我所親，十善亦備，若如沙門語者，汝今命終，必生天上，今我相信，從汝取定，若審有天報者，汝當必來語我使知，然後當信。』迦葉！彼命終已，至今不來，彼是我親，不應欺我，許而不來，必無他世。」

He replied, “Kāśyapa! I had a relative who fell gravely ill. I went to him and said, ‘Various śramaṇas and brāhmaṇas cherish differing views and say that there is a next world, declaring that those who do not kill, do not steal, do not commit sexual misconduct, do not deceive, are not double-tongued, do not speak harshly, do not tell lies, do not use frivolous speech, are not covetous, not jealous, and hold no wrong views, will upon the breakup of the body and the end of life all be born in the heavens. At first I did not believe it. Why so? Because I had never seen anyone return after death and speak of the place into which they had fallen. If someone were to come and describe the place into which they were born, I would certainly believe it. Now you are my relative, and you are fully endowed with the ten good deeds. If it is as the śramaṇas say, upon the end of your life you will surely be born in the heavens. Now I place my trust in you, to obtain certainty from you. If there is truly a heavenly retribution, you must certainly come and tell me so that I know; only then will I believe.’ Kāśyapa! He has ended his life and has not come to this day. He was my relative and would not deceive me. Having promised yet not returned, there must surely be no other world.”

He answered, “Kāśyapa, I had a relative who fell seriously ill. I went and said to him, ‘Ascetics and priests each hold unorthodox views. They say that someone who doesn’t kill beings, steal, or engage in sex, doesn’t speak duplicitously, use harsh words, speak falsely, or speak frivolously, and isn’t greedy, jealous, or have wrong views will be born in Heaven when their body breaks up and their life ends. From the start, I haven’t believed this. Why is that? To begin with, I’ve never seen anyone return after dying, though it’s claimed they fall somewhere. If someone were to come back and say where they fell, I would certainly believe it. Now, you are a friend of mine who has done the ten good deeds. If it’s as the ascetics say, you’ll surely be born in Heaven when your life ends. We trust each other, and I’d certainly accept what I heard from you. If you discover there is a heaven, you should return and tell me about it. Then, I’ll believe it.’

“Kāśyapa, my relative hasn’t come back to me since their life ended. They were my friend; they wouldn’t have lied to me. They agreed, but they didn’t come back. Surely, there isn’t another world.”

7.32

迦葉又言：「諸有智者，以譬喻得解，我今當復為汝說喻。譬如有人，墮於深廁，身首沒溺，王勅左右：『挽此人出，以竹為篦，三刮其身，澡豆淨灰，次如洗之，後以香湯，沐浴其體，細末眾香，坌其身上，勅除髮師，淨其鬚髮。』又勅左右，重將洗沐，如是至三，洗以香湯，坌以香末，名衣上服，莊嚴其身，百味甘饍，以恣其口，將詣高堂，五欲娛樂，其人復能還入廁不？」

Kāśyapa said again, “Those who possess wisdom attain understanding through parables; I shall now tell you another simile. Suppose a man fell into a deep cesspit, his body and head submerged. The king ordered his attendants: ‘Pull this man out; use a bamboo scraper to scrape his body three times, cleanse him in succession with bath powder and clean ashes, and then wash his body with fragrant water, sprinkle finely ground diverse perfumes over his body, and order a barber to trim his hair and beard.’ He further ordered his attendants to wash and bathe him again, doing so up to three times, washing him with fragrant water, dusting him with fragrant powder, adorning his body with fine and superior garments, indulging his palate with the hundred delicacies of sweet food, and escorting him to a high hall to delight in the pleasures of the five desires. Would that man ever be willing to enter the cesspit again?”

Kāśyapa also said, “Those who are wise explain things with parables. Now, I’ll explain this for you with a story. Once, there was a man who fell into a deep latrine, and he was submerged in it up to his head. The king ordered his men, ‘Pull this man out. Clean him off with bamboo, scrub his body three times, and cleanse him with beans and ash. Once he’s been washed, anoint him with incense and bathe his body. Then dust him with fine incense powder and order a barber to cut and wash his hair.’

“He also ordered his servants to take him to a bath. They did this three times, washing him with incense water and dusting him with incense power. They adorned him with fine clothes and fed him a sumptuous meal, letting him eat what he liked. He was then led to a high hall where he could enjoy the five desires. Would that man go back to the latrine?”

7.33

答曰：「不能！彼處臭惡，何可還入？」

He replied, “He could not! That place is foul and disgusting; how could he enter it again?”

He answered, “He couldn’t! That’s such a disgusting place, how could he reenter it?”

7.34

迦葉言：「諸天亦爾。此閻浮利地，臭穢不淨，諸天在上，去此百由旬，遙聞人臭，甚於廁溷。婆羅門！汝親族知識，十善具足，然必生天，五欲自娛，快樂無極，寧當復肯還來，入此閻浮廁不？」

Kāśyapa said, “The devas are just like that. This continent of Jambudvīpa is foul, filthy, and impure. The devas above, a hundred yojanas away from here, smell the foul stench of humans from afar, worse than that of a latrine. Brāhmaṇa! Your relative and friend was fully endowed with the ten good deeds, and so he was certainly born in heaven, amusing himself with the five desires and experiencing limitless joy. Would he ever be willing to come back and enter this Jambudvīpa cesspit?”

Kāśyapa said, “The gods are likewise. The lands of Jambudvīpa are polluted and impure to those in the heavens above. They can smell people’s bad odor from more than a hundred leagues away like it’s a horrible latrine. Priest, that relative you knew who completed the ten good deeds was surely born in a heaven where they enjoy the five desires. Their happiness is unsurpassable. Would they return to this latrine of Jambudvīpa?”

7.35

答曰：「不也！」

He replied, “No!”

He answered, “No.”

7.36

迦葉又言：「以此相方，自足可知，何為守迷，自生邪見？」

Kāśyapa said again, “Comparing this case, it is naturally clear enough. Why do you hold on to delusion and engender wrong views yourself?”

Kāśyapa also said, “In this way, there’s enough for us to know [there’s another world]. How can you hold to this delusion and create these wrong views for yourself?”

7.37

婆羅門言：「汝雖引喻，言有他世，我猶言無。」

The brāhmaṇa said, “Though you have drawn a simile claiming there is a next world, I still say there is none.”

The priest said, “Although you’ve told this story to show there’s another world, I still say there isn’t one.”

7.38

迦葉復言：「汝頗更有餘緣，可知無他世耶？」

Kāśyapa said further, “Do you have any other reason by which it can be known that there is no next world?”

Kāśyapa again asked, “Do you have some other reason for knowing there isn’t another world?”

7.39

婆羅門報言：「我更有餘緣，知無他世。」

The brāhmaṇa replied, “I have another reason to know that there is no next world.”

The priest responded, “I have another reason that I know there isn’t another world.”

7.40

迦葉問曰：「以何緣知？」

Kāśyapa asked, “By what reason do you know it?”

Kāśyapa asked, “What’s the reason you know this?”

7.41

答曰：「迦葉！我有親族，遇患篤重，我往語言：『沙門、婆羅門各懷異見，說有後世，言不殺、不盜、不婬、不欺、不飲酒者，身壞命終，皆生忉利天上；我亦不信，所以然者？初未曾見死已來還，說所墮處；若有人來說所墮生，我必信耳。今汝是我所親，五戒具足，身壞命終，必生忉利天上，今我相信，從汝取定，若審有天福者，汝當還來，語我使知，然後當信。』迦葉！彼命終已，至今不來，彼是我親，不應有欺，許而不來，必無他世。」

He replied, “Kāśyapa! I had a relative who fell gravely ill. I went to him and said, ‘Śramaṇas and brāhmaṇas cherish differing views and say that there is a next world, declaring that those who do not kill, do not steal, do not commit sexual misconduct, do not deceive, and do not drink alcohol, will upon the breakup of the body and the end of life all be born in the Trāyastriṃśa Heaven. I also did not believe it. Why so? Because I had never seen anyone return after death and speak of the place into which they had fallen. If someone were to come and describe the place into which they were born, I would certainly believe it. Now you are my relative, and you are fully endowed with the five precepts. Upon the breakup of the body and the end of life, you will surely be born in the Trāyastriṃśa Heaven. Now I place my trust in you, to obtain certainty from you. If there is truly heavenly fortune, you must return and tell me so that I know; only then will I believe.’ Kāśyapa! He has ended his life and has not come to this day. He was my relative and would not deceive me. Having promised yet not returned, there must surely be no other world.”

He answered, “Kāśyapa, I had a relative who fell seriously ill. I went and said to him, ‘Ascetics and priests each hold unorthodox views. They say that someone who doesn’t kill beings, steal, engage in sex, lie, or drink alcohol will be born in Heaven when their body breaks up and their life ends. I don’t believe this, either. Why is that? To begin with, I’ve never seen anyone return after dying, though it’s claimed they fall somewhere. If someone were to come back and say where they fell, I would certainly believe it. Now, you are a friend of mine who has completed the five precepts … you’d surely be born in Heaven when your body breaks up and your life ends. We trust each other, and I’d certainly accept what I heard from you. If you discover there is a heaven, you should return and tell me about it. Then, I’ll believe it.’

“Kāśyapa, my relative hasn’t come back since their life ended. They were my friend; they wouldn’t have lied to me. They agreed, but they didn’t come back. Surely, there isn’t another world.”

7.42

迦葉答言：「此間百歲，正當忉利天上一日一夜耳，如是亦三十日為一月，十二月為一歲，如是彼天壽千歲。云何，婆羅門！汝親族五戒具足，身壞命終，必生忉利天上。彼生天已，作是念言：『我初生此，當二三日中，娛樂遊戱，然後來下報汝言。』者，寧得見不？」

Kāśyapa replied, “A hundred years in this world is just one day and one night in the Trāyastriṃśa Heaven; likewise, thirty days make a month, twelve months make a year, and thus the lifespan of those devas is a thousand years. What do you think, brāhmaṇa? Your relative was fully endowed with the five precepts, and upon the breakup of the body and the end of life, he was surely born in the Trāyastriṃśa Heaven. If, having been born in heaven, he thought to himself: ‘Having just been born here, I shall amuse myself and make merry for two or three days, and only then descend to inform you,’ could you ever have seen him?”

Kāśyapa answered, “A century here is exactly one day and night in the Trāyastriṃśa Heaven. Thirty days makes one month, and twelve months makes a year there. Thus, those gods live for thousands of years. How is it, priest? That relative you knew who completed the five precepts was surely born up in the Trāyastriṃśa Heaven when their body broke up and their life ended. After being born there, they would have thought, ‘It’s only been two or three days since I was born here. I’ll enjoy it and entertain myself. Afterward, I’ll go down and tell him about it.’ Would they see you?”

7.43

答曰：「不也！我死久矣，何由相見？」

He replied, “No! I would have been dead for a long time; how could we see each other?”

He answered, “No. I would be long since dead. How could we see each other again?”

7.44

婆羅門言：「我不信也，誰來告汝有忉利天，壽命如是？」

The brāhmaṇa said, “I do not believe it. Who has come to tell you that there is a Trāyastriṃśa Heaven and that its lifespan is like this?”

The priest said, “But I don’t believe this. Who came and told you that there was a Trāyastriṃśa Heaven and their life spans are like that there?”

7.45

迦葉言：「諸有智者，以譬喻得解，我今更當為汝引喻。譬如有人，從生而盲，不識五色，青、黃、赤、白，麤、細、長、短，亦不見日、月、星象、丘陵、溝壑。有人問言：『青、黃、赤、白五色云何？』盲人答曰：『無有五色。』如是麤、細、長、短、日、月、星象、山陵、溝壑，皆言無有。云何？婆羅門！彼盲人言，是正答不？」

Kāśyapa said, “Those who possess wisdom attain understanding through parables; I shall now give you another simile. Suppose a man was blind from birth: he did not recognize the five colours—blue, yellow, red, and white—nor coarse and fine, long and short; nor did he see the sun, the moon, the constellations of stars, hills, or ravines. Someone asked him, ‘What are the five colours, blue, yellow, red, and white, like?’ The blind man replied, ‘There are no five colours.’ Likewise, as for coarse, fine, long, short, the sun, moon, stars, hills, and ravines, he said that none of them exist. What do you think, brāhmaṇa? Was what that blind man said a correct answer?”

Kāśyapa said, “Those who are wise explain things with parables. Now, I’ll explain this for you with a story. Once, there was a person who was blind from birth. They didn’t know the five colors, such as blue, yellow, red, and white, or coarse, fine, long, and short. They hadn’t seen the sun, moon, stars, hills, or valleys. Someone asked them, ‘What are the five colors, such as blue, yellow, red, and white?’

“The blind person answered, ‘There are no five colors.’ It was the same with coarse, fine, long, and short or the moon, sun, stars, hills, and valleys. The blind person said they didn’t exist. How is it, priest? Did that blind person answer correctly?”

7.46

答曰：「不也！」

He replied, “No!”

He answered, “No.”

7.47

「所以者何？世間現有五色，青、黃、赤、白，麤、細、長、短，日、月、星象、山陵、溝壑，而彼言無。婆羅門！汝亦如是。忉利天壽，實有不虛，汝自不見，便言其無。」

“Why is that? The world visibly has the five colours—blue, yellow, red, and white—as well as coarse, fine, long, short, the sun, moon, stars, hills, and ravines, yet he said they do not exist. Brāhmaṇa! You are just like this. The lifespan in the Trāyastriṃśa Heaven truly exists and is not false; because you do not see it yourself, you simply claim it does not exist.”

“Why is that? The world obviously has five colors, such as blue, yellow, red, or white, coarse, fine, long, and short, and the sun, moon, stars, hills, and valleys, but that person said they don’t exist. Priest, you are the same. The life span of the Trāyastriṃśa gods is real and not false. You haven’t witnessed it yourself, so you say it doesn’t exist.”

7.48

婆羅門言：「汝雖言有，我猶不信。」

The brāhmaṇa said, “Though you say it exists, I still do not believe it.”

The priest said, “Although you say it exists, I still don’t believe it.”

7.49

迦葉又言：「汝復作何緣，而知其無？」

Kāśyapa said again, “By what other reason do you know it does not exist?”

Kāśyapa then said, “Do you have another reason for knowing it doesn’t exist?”

7.50

答曰：「迦葉！我所封村人有作賊者，伺察所得，將詣我所，語我言：『此人為賊，唯願治之。』我答言：『收縛此人，著大釜中，韋葢厚泥，使其牢密，勿令有泄，遣人圍遶，以火煮之。』我時欲觀知其精神所出之處，將諸侍從，遶釜而觀，都不見其神去來處，又發釜看，亦不見神有往來之處。以此緣故，知無他世。」

He replied, “Kāśyapa! Among the people of my fief village there was one who acted as a thief. Detected and apprehended, he was brought before me, and they said to me, ‘This man is a thief; we only wish that you punish him.’ I replied, ‘Seize and bind this man, put him into a large cauldron, cover it with a leather lid and seal it thickly with clay, making it tight and secure so that nothing can leak out; dispatch men to encircle it and boil him over a fire.’ At that time, wishing to observe and know the place where his consciousness departed, I took my attendants and circled the cauldron to watch, but we did not see any place where his spirit came or went. Then we opened the cauldron to look, but again did not see any place where the spirit went or came. For this reason, I know there is no next world.”

He answered, “Kāśyapa, there was a thief in the town that I was given. He was hunted down, and an officer brought him to me. He said, ‘This man is a thief. Please judge him.’

“I answered, ‘Tie him up and put him in a large cauldron. Cover it in leather and thick mud to seal him inside. Don’t let him escape. Have people surround the cauldron and heat it with a fire.’

“At the time, I wanted to watch his spirit escape from that container. I directed my servants to surround the cauldron and watch it. None of them saw his spirit leave that place. Also, when we opened the cauldron and looked in, we didn’t see his spirit being reborn anywhere. For this reason, I know there isn’t another world.”

7.51

迦葉又言：「我今問汝，若能答者隨意報之。婆羅門！汝在高樓，息寢臥時，頗曾夢見山林、江河、園觀、浴池、國邑、街巷不？」

Kāśyapa said again, “I shall now ask you a question; if you can answer, reply as you see fit. Brāhmaṇa! When you are resting and asleep in a high tower, have you ever dreamt of mountains, forests, rivers, parks, bathing ponds, countries, cities, streets, and lanes?”

Kāśyapa said, “Now, I’ll ask you a question. If you can answer it, tell me what you think. Priest, when you’re sleeping in a high tower, do you ever dream of mountains, forests, rivers, parks, lakes, cities, or streets?”

7.52

答曰：「夢見！」

He replied, “I have dreamt of them!”

He answered, “I do dream of them.”

7.53

又問：「婆羅門！汝當夢時，居家眷屬侍衛汝不？」

He asked again, “Brāhmaṇa! When you were dreaming, did your household family members attend to and watch over you?”

He then asked, “Priest, when you are dreaming of them, are your family and servants guarding you?”

7.54

答曰：「侍衛！」

He replied, “They attended and watched!”

He answered, “They guard me.”

7.55

又問：「婆羅門！汝諸眷屬見汝識神有出入不？」

He asked again, “Brāhmaṇa! Did your family members see your consciousness depart or enter?”

He further asked, “Priest, do your servants see your spirit leaving and returning?”

7.56

答曰：「不見！」

He replied, “They did not see it!”

He answered, “They don’t see it.”

7.57

迦葉又言：「汝今生存，識神出入，尚不可見，況於死者乎？汝不可以目前現事觀於眾生。婆羅門！有比丘初夜、後夜捐除睡眠，精勤不懈，專念道品，以三昧力，修淨天眼；以天眼力，觀於眾生。死此生彼，從彼生此，壽命長短，顏色好醜，隨行受報，善惡之趣，皆悉知見。汝不可以穢濁肉眼，不能徹見眾生所趣，便言無也。婆羅門！以此可知，必有他世。」

Kāśyapa said again, “While you are alive now, the departure and entrance of your consciousness cannot be seen, so how much less so for a dead person? You cannot examine sentient beings through what is presently before your eyes. Brāhmaṇa! There are bhikṣus who discard sleep in the early and late watches of the night, who are diligent and unflagging, focusing single-mindedly on the factors of the path. Through the power of samādhi, they cultivate the pure divine eye. By the power of the divine eye, they observe sentient beings: dying here and being born there, dying there and being born here, their lifespan long or short, their appearance handsome or ugly, receiving retribution according to their actions, and their destinies good or evil—they know and see all of this. Because your turbid and defiled fleshy eye cannot perceive through to where sentient beings go, you cannot simply say that it does not exist. Brāhmaṇa! From this it can be known that there must certainly be a next world.”

Kāśyapa said, “Now, your spirit leaves and returns while you’re alive, but it can’t be seen. Would it be different for someone who dies? It isn’t possible to directly witness it with your eyes while watching a sentient being.

“Priest, suppose there’s a monk who doesn’t get sleepy from the beginning to the end of the night. He’s diligent and not negligent, focusing on the factors of the path. With the power of samādhi, he cultivates the pure heavenly eye. With the power of the heavenly eye, he watches sentient beings. They die here and are born there, and they’re born here from there. Their life spans are long and short, and their appearances are beautiful and ugly. According to the results of their actions, they arrive in good and bad destinations. He fully knows and sees this. You cannot witness the good and bad destinations of sentient beings with the polluted flesh eye, so you say they don’t exist. Priest, we know in this way there’s surely another world.”

7.58

婆羅門言：「汝雖引喻說有他世，如我所見，猶無有也。」

The brāhmaṇa said, “Though you have drawn similes saying there is a next world, according to my view there is still none.”

The priest said, “Although you’ve told this story showing that there’s another world, my view is still that it doesn’t exist.”

7.59

迦葉又言：「汝頗更有因緣，知無他世耶？」

Kāśyapa said again, “Do you have any other reason by which you know there is no next world?”

Kāśyapa again asked, “Do you have another reason for knowing that there isn’t another world?”

7.60

婆羅門言：「有！」

The brāhmaṇa said, “I do!”

The priest said, “I do.”

7.61

迦葉言：「以何緣知？」

Kāśyapa said, “By what reason do you know it?”

Kāśyapa said, “What’s the reason you know this?”

7.62

婆羅門言：「我所封村人有作賊者，伺察所得，將詣我所，語我言：『此人為賊，唯願治之。』我勅左右收縛此人，生剝其皮，求其識神，而都不見；又勅左右臠割其肉，以求識神，又復不見；又勅左右截其筋、脉、骨間求神，又復不見；又勅左右打骨出髓，髓中求神，又復不見。迦葉！我以此緣，知無他世。」

The brāhmaṇa said, “Among the people of my fief village there was one who acted as a thief. Detected and apprehended, he was brought before me, and they said to me, ‘This man is a thief; we only wish that you punish him.’ I ordered my attendants to seize and bind this man and flay his skin alive, searching for his consciousness, yet they did not see it at all. I then ordered my attendants to slice his flesh piece by piece to search for his consciousness, but again they did not see it. I then ordered my attendants to sever his sinews and vessels and search among the bones for the spirit, but again they did not see it. I then ordered my attendants to crack the bones and extract the marrow, searching within the marrow for the spirit, but again they did not see it. Kāśyapa! By this reason, I know there is no next world.”

The priest said, “There was a thief in the town that I was given. He was hunted down, and an officer brought him to me. He said, ‘This man is a thief. Please judge him.’

“I ordered my men, ‘Tie him up, peel off his skin, and look for his spirit.’ None of them saw it. I instructed them to cut away his flesh and look for his spirit. Again, they didn’t see it. I instructed them to cut his sinews, arteries, and bones while looking for his spirit. Again, they didn’t see it. I instructed them to crush his bones, extract the marrow, and look for his spirit in the marrow. Again, they didn’t see it. Kāśyapa, I know there isn’t another world for this reason.”

7.63

迦葉復言：「諸有智者，以譬喻得解，我今復當為汝引喻。乃往過去久遠世時，有一國壞，荒毀未復，時，有商賈五百乘車經過其土，有一梵志奉事火神，常止一林。時，諸商人皆往投宿，清旦別去，時，事火梵志作是念言：『向諸商人宿此林中，今者已去，儻有遺漏可試往看。』尋詣彼所，都無所見，唯有一小兒始年一歲，獨在彼坐。梵志復念：『我今何忍見此小兒於我前死？今者寧可將此小兒至吾所止，養活之耶！』即抱小兒往所住處而養育之，其兒轉大，至十餘歲。

Kāśyapa spoke again: "The wise gain understanding through similes. Now I shall offer another simile for you. Long ago in the distant past, there was a country that fell into ruin, desolate and not yet restored. At that time, a merchant with five hundred wagons passed through that land. There was a brahmacārin who worshiped the fire deity, constantly dwelling in a forest. At that time, the merchants all went there to lodge for the night, and departed early in the morning. Then the fire-worshiping brahmacārin thought to himself: 'Earlier, those merchants lodged in this forest, and now they have departed; perhaps they left something behind—I might try going to look.' He immediately went to that place, but found nothing at all, except for a young child only one year old, sitting there alone. The brahmacārin thought again: 'How could I bear to watch this child die before my eyes? Should I not rather take this child to my dwelling and raise him alive?' Thereupon he held the child, carried him to where he lived, and nurtured him. The child gradually grew up to be more than ten years of age.

Kāśyapa again said, “Those who are wise explain things with parables. Now, I’ll explain this for you with a story. Long, long ago, there was a country that was destroyed. It had yet to recover from the devastation when a merchant caravan of five hundred carts passed through that land.

“There was a wanderer who worshipped the fire spirit who always stayed in the grove where those merchants stopped for the night. When they departed the next morning, the fire-worshipping wanderer thought, ‘Those merchants who were staying in this grove may have left some effluent as they departed. I’ll go check to see.’ He quickly went to where they had stayed, but he saw nothing but a one-year-old child sitting there by himself.

“The wanderer then thought, ‘Now, how could I bear to see this small child die in front of me? It would be better to take the child to my home and nurture him!’ The wanderer picked up the child and took it to his abode where he raised him. The child grew up and was over ten years old.

7.64

「時，此梵志以少因緣欲遊人間，語小兒曰：『我有少緣，欲暫出行，汝善守護此火，慎勿使滅。若火滅者，當以鑽鑽木，取火燃之。』具誡勅已，出林遊行。梵志去後，小兒貪戲，不數視火，火遂便滅；小兒戲還，見火已滅，懊惱而言：『我所為非，我父去時，具約勅我，守護此火，慎勿令滅，而我貪戲，致使火滅，當如之何？』彼時，小兒吹灰求火，不能得已，便以斧劈薪求火，復不能得，又復斬薪置於臼中，搗以求火，又不能得。

"At that time, this brahmacārin had a minor errand and wished to travel among human settlements. He said to the boy: 'I have a minor errand and wish to go out for a short while. Guard this fire well, and take care not to let it go out. If the fire goes out, you must use a fire drill to drill wood and kindle fire to ignite it.' Having fully given his admonitions and instructions, he left the forest to travel. After the brahmacārin had gone, the boy was fond of play and did not frequently attend to the fire, so the fire went out. When the boy returned from playing and saw that the fire was already extinguished, he lamented in distress, saying: 'What I have done is wrong! When my father departed, he fully instructed and admonished me to guard this fire and take care not to let it go out, but because I was fond of play, I caused the fire to go out. What should I do?' At that time, the boy blew on the ashes to seek fire, but could not obtain it. He then chopped firewood with an axe to seek fire, but again could not obtain it. He further cut up the firewood, placed it in a mortar, and pounded it to seek fire, but still could not obtain it.

“It was then that the wanderer was going to travel to a community for some minor reason. He said to the child, ‘I will be out traveling for a minor reason. Guard this fire well. Be careful not to let it go out! If the fire goes out, rub wood together to rekindle it.’ After giving the child these instructions, he left the grove and went on his trip.

“After the wanderer was gone, the child spent his time playing and didn’t check the fire often, so the fire did go out. When the child returned from playing, he saw that the fire had gone out and felt terrible. He said, ‘I’ve made a mistake. When my father left, he gave me instructions to guard this fire and not let it go out. But I spent my time playing, and now the fire is out. What shall I do?’

“The child blew on the ashes looking for the fire, but he couldn’t find it. He chopped firewood looking for the fire, but again he couldn’t find it. He also ground the firewood after cutting it up, pounding it in a mortar looking for the fire, but he still couldn’t find it.

7.65

「爾時，梵志於人間還，詣彼林所，問小兒曰：『吾先勅汝使守護火，火不滅耶？』小兒對曰：『我向出戲，不時護視，火今已滅。』復問小兒：『汝以何方便更求火耶？』小兒報曰：『火出於木，我以斧破木求火，不得火；復斬之令碎，置於臼中，杵搗求火，復不能得。』時，彼梵志以鑽鑽木出火，積薪而燃，告小兒曰：『夫欲求火，法應如此，不應破析杵碎而求。』

"Then, the brahmacārin returned from the human settlements and arrived at that forest dwelling. He asked the boy: 'I instructed you earlier to guard the fire; did the fire not go out?' The boy replied: 'Earlier I went out to play and did not watch over it in time, so the fire is now extinguished.' He asked the boy again: 'By what means did you seek fire again?' The boy reported: 'Fire comes from wood. I split wood with an axe to seek fire, but could not get fire; I then chopped it into pieces, placed it in a mortar, and pounded it with a pestle to seek fire, but still could not get it.' At that time, the brahmacārin drilled wood with a fire drill to produce fire, stacked the firewood, and lit it. He told the boy: 'One who wishes to seek fire must properly do it like this; one should not seek it by splitting it or pounding it to pieces.'"

“The wanderer returned from the community and arrived at his grove. He asked the child, ‘Didn’t I instruct you before to guard the fire and keep it from going out?’

“The child responded, ‘I went out to play and didn’t spend the day watching over it. Now, the fire has gone out.’

“He again asked the child, ‘What was your method of looking for the fire?’

“The child responded, ‘The fire came out of the wood, so I chopped wood looking for fire, but I didn’t find any. I also chopped it up and ground it in a mortar looking for the fire. I didn’t find any that way, either.’

“The wanderer then rubbed wood together to make a fire and set a pile of firewood alight. He told the child, ‘Someone who’s looking for fire should use this method. They shouldn’t chop or grind wood to find it.’

7.66

「婆羅門！汝亦如是無有方便，皮剝死人而求識神，汝不可以目前現事觀於眾生。婆羅門！有比丘初夜後夜捐除睡眠，精勤不懈，專念道品，以三昧力，修淨天眼，以天眼力，觀於眾生，死此生彼，從彼生此，壽命長短，顏色好醜，隨行受報，善惡之趣，皆悉知見；汝不可以穢濁肉眼，不能徹見眾生所趣，便言無也。婆羅門！以此可知，必有他世。」

"Brāhmaṇa, you too are like this: devoid of proper means, you flayed a dead man's skin to seek the consciousness-spirit. You cannot observe sentient beings based only on what is present before your eyes. Brāhmaṇa! There are bhikṣus who, during the first watch and the last watch of the night, dispel sleep, strive diligently without slackening, concentrate their thoughts on the factors of awakening, and through the power of samādhi cultivate the pure divine eye. Through the power of the divine eye, they observe sentient beings dying here and being born there, dying there and being born here, with lifespans long or short, complexions handsome or ugly, receiving retributions according to their deeds, in good and bad destinies—all of which they know and see. Just because you, with your filthy, defiled fleshly eye, cannot penetrate and see the destinies to which sentient beings go, you say that there is none. Brāhmaṇa, by this you should know that there must certainly be another world."

“Priest, you likewise didn’t use the right method when you peeled the skin off the dead man looking for his spirit. It’s not something that can be seen directly with your eyes when you examine sentient beings.

“Priest, suppose there’s a monk who doesn’t become sleepy from the start to the end of the night. He’s diligent and not negligent, focusing on the factors of the path. He cultivates the pure heavenly eye with the power of samādhi, and he watches sentient beings with the power of the heavenly eye. They die here and are born there, and they’re born here from there. Their life spans are long and short, and their appearances are beautiful and ugly. According to the results of their actions, they have good and bad destinations. He fully knows and sees this. You cannot witness the good and bad destinies of sentient beings with the polluted flesh eye, so you say they don’t exist. Priest, we know in this way there’s surely another world.”

7.67

婆羅門言：「汝雖引喻說有他世，如我所見，猶無有也。」

The brāhmaṇa said: "Although you present similes saying there is another world, according to what I have observed, there still is none."

Kāśyapa again said, “Do you have another reason for knowing there isn’t another world?”

7.68

迦葉復言：「汝頗更有因緣，知無他世耶？」

Kāśyapa spoke again: "Do you have any further reason to know that there is no other world?"

7.69

婆羅門言：「有！」

The brāhmaṇa said: "I do!"

The priest said, “I do.”

7.70

迦葉言：「以何緣知？」

Kāśyapa said: "By what reason do you know it?"

Kāśyapa asked, “What’s the reason you know this?”

7.71

婆羅門言：「我所封村人有作賊者，伺察所得，將詣我所，語我言：『此人為賊，唯願治之。』我勅左右：『將此人以稱稱之。』侍者受命，即以稱稱。又告侍者：『汝將此人安徐殺之，勿損皮肉。』即受我教，殺之無損。我復勅左右：『更重稱之。』乃重於本。迦葉！生稱彼人，識神猶在，顏色悅豫，猶能言語，其身乃輕；死已重稱，識神已滅，無有顏色，不能語言，其身更重，我以此緣，知無他世。」

The brāhmaṇa said: "Among the people of the village enfeoffed to me, there was one who committed theft. Having been spied upon and caught, he was brought to my dwelling, and they said to me: 'This person is a thief; we pray that you punish him.' I ordered my attendants: 'Take this person and weigh him with a scale.' The attendants received the command and immediately weighed him with the scale. I further told the attendants: 'Take this person and slowly put him to death, but do not damage his skin or flesh.' Thereupon they received my instruction and killed him without damage. I again ordered my attendants: 'Weigh him again.' He was heavier than before. Kāśyapa! When weighed alive, his consciousness-spirit was still present, his complexion was cheerful and pleasant, and he was still able to speak, yet his body was light. After death, when weighed again, his consciousness-spirit was already extinguished, he had no color, and he could not speak, yet his body was heavier. By this reason, I know that there is no other world."

The priest said, “There was a thief in the town that I was given. He was hunted down, and an officer brought him to me. He said, ‘This man is a thief. Please judge him.’

“I ordered my men, ‘Take this man and weigh him on a scale.’ My servants accepted this order and weighed him with a scale.

“I then told my servants, ‘Take this man and kill him in a non-violent way that won’t damage his skin or flesh.’ They accepted my instruction and killed him in a non-violent way.

“Again, I ordered my servants, ‘Weigh him again.’ They then weighed his body.

“Kāśyapa, when they initially weighed that man, his spirit was still present. He looked relaxed, he could still talk, and his body was lighter. After he was dead, he was weighed again when his spirit had passed away. He had no expression, he couldn’t talk, and his body was heavier. I know there isn’t another world for this reason.”

7.72

迦葉語婆羅門：「吾今問汝，隨意答我。如人稱鐵，先冷稱已，然後熱稱，何有光色柔輭而輕？何無光色堅䩕而重？」

Kāśyapa said to the brāhmaṇa: "I now ask you, answer me as you please. If someone weighs iron, first weighing it cold and then weighing it hot, which one has luster and color, is soft and pliable, and is light? Which one is devoid of luster and color, is hard and rigid, and is heavy?"

Kāśyapa said to the priest, “Now, I’ll ask you a question and you tell me what you think. Suppose someone weighs iron. First, they weigh it while it’s cold, and later they weigh it while it’s hot. When would it be glowing with color, flexible, and lighter? When would it not be glowing, solid, and heavier?”

7.73

婆羅門言：「熱鐵有色，柔輭而輕，冷鐵無色，剛強而重。」

The brāhmaṇa said: "Hot iron has color, is soft and pliable, and is light; cold iron is devoid of color, is hard and stiff, and is heavy."

The priest said, “Hot iron has color, and it’s soft and light. Cold iron has no color, and it’s hard and heavy.”

7.74

迦葉語言：「人亦如是，生有顏色，柔輭而輕；死無顏色，剛強而重。以此可知，必有他世。」

Kāśyapa said: "A person is also like this: while alive, they have complexion, are soft and pliable, and are light; when dead, they have no complexion, are hard and rigid, and are heavy. By this you should know that there must certainly be another world."

Kāśyapa said, “A man is likewise. While alive, he has color, and he’s soft and light. When he’s dead, he has no color, and he’s hard and heavy. In this way, we know there’s surely another world.”

7.75

婆羅門言：「汝雖引喻說有他世，如我所見，必無有也。」

The brāhmaṇa said: "Although you present similes saying there is another world, according to what I have observed, there certainly is none."

The priest said, “Although you’ve used this analogy to show there’s another world, my view is still that there surely isn’t one.”