Kathavatthu 3.5: Aṭṭhamakakathā

3.5.1.1

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhipariyuṭṭhānaṃ pahīnanti?

Is the obsession of view abandoned for the eighth person?

Controverted Point: That for the person in the Eighth Stage, outbursts of wrong views and of doubt are put away.

3.5.1.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Controverted Point: That for the person in the Eighth Stage, outbursts of wrong views and of doubt are put away.

3.5.1.3

Aṭṭhamako puggalo sotāpanno sotāpattiphalappatto paṭiladdho adhigato sacchikato upasampajja viharati, kāyena phusitvā viharatīti?

Is the eighth person a stream-enterer, has he attained the fruit of stream-entry, acquired it, arrived at it, realized it, dwelling having attained it, dwelling having touched it with the body?

Theravādin: Are you then also prepared to admit that the eighth man is a Stream-Winner, one who has won, obtained, arrived at, and realized the Fruit of Stream-Winning, and that, having achieved, he lives in personal contact therewith?

3.5.1.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

3.5.2.1

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa vicikicchāpariyuṭṭhānaṃ pahīnanti?

Is the obsession of doubt abandoned for the eighth person?

3.5.2.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.5.2.3

Aṭṭhamako puggalo sotāpanno sotāpattiphalappatto …pe… kāyena phusitvā viharatīti?

Is the eighth person a stream-enterer, has he attained the fruit of stream-entry … dwelling having touched it with the body?

3.5.2.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

3.5.3.1

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhipariyuṭṭhānaṃ pahīnanti?

Is the obsession of view abandoned for the eighth person?

Are you further prepared to admit that he has put away the latent bias of doubt and wrong views? And if these, then also the infection of mere rule and ritual? For your proposition involves all this. Conversely, if you deny that these are put away by him, you must also deny that he has put away wrong views and doubt.

3.5.3.2

Āmantā.

"Yes."

3.5.3.3

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhānusayo pahīnoti?

"Is the underlying tendency to views abandoned in the eighth person?"

3.5.3.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

"It should not be said thus …pe…

3.5.3.5

aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhipariyuṭṭhānaṃ pahīnanti?

is the obsession of views abandoned in the eighth person?"

3.5.3.6

Āmantā.

"Yes."

3.5.3.7

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa vicikicchānusayo … sīlabbataparāmāso pahīnoti?

"Is the underlying tendency to doubt … clinging to rules and observances abandoned in the eighth person?"

3.5.3.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

"It should not be said thus …pe…."

3.5.4.1

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa vicikicchāpariyuṭṭhānaṃ pahīnanti?

"Is the obsession of doubt abandoned in the eighth person?"

3.5.4.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.5.4.3

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa vicikicchānusayo pahīnoti?

Is the underlying tendency to doubt abandoned for the eighth person?

3.5.4.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

3.5.4.5

aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa vicikicchāpariyuṭṭhānaṃ pahīnanti?

Is the obsession of doubt abandoned for the eighth person?

3.5.4.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.5.4.7

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhānusayo … sīlabbataparāmāso pahīnoti?

Is the underlying tendency to views … is adherence to rules and observances abandoned for the eighth person?

3.5.4.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

3.5.5.1

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhānusayo appahīnoti?

Is the underlying tendency to views unabandoned for the eighth person?

3.5.5.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.5.5.3

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhipariyuṭṭhānaṃ appahīnanti?

Is the obsession of views unabandoned for the eighth person?

3.5.5.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

3.5.5.5

aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhānusayo appahīnoti?

Is the underlying tendency to views unabandoned for the eighth person?

3.5.5.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.5.5.7

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa vicikicchāpariyuṭṭhānaṃ appahīnanti?

Is the obsession of doubt unabandoned for the eighth person?

3.5.5.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

3.5.6.1

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa vicikicchānusayo … sīlabbataparāmāso appahīnoti?

Is the underlying tendency to doubt … is adherence to rules and observances unabandoned for the eighth person?

3.5.6.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.5.6.3

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhipariyuṭṭhānaṃ appahīnanti?

Is the obsession of views unabandoned for the eighth person?

3.5.6.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

3.5.6.5

aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa sīlabbataparāmāso appahīnoti?

Is adherence to rules and observances unabandoned for the eighth person?

3.5.6.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.5.6.7

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa vicikicchāpariyuṭṭhānaṃ appahīnanti?

Is the obsession of doubt unabandoned for the eighth person?

3.5.6.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

3.5.7.1

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhipariyuṭṭhānaṃ pahīnanti?

Is the obsession of views abandoned for the eighth person?

How should he have already put away wrong views and doubt when he has not yet practised the Path wherein they get put away? And not only the Path (the Eightfold), but all the other factors of Enlightenment?

3.5.7.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.5.7.3

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhipariyuṭṭhānapahānāya maggo bhāvitoti?

Has the path been developed for the abandoning of the obsession of views for the eighth person?

3.5.7.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

3.5.7.5

aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhipariyuṭṭhānaṃ pahīnanti?

Is the obsession of views abandoned for the eighth person?

3.5.7.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.5.7.7

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhipariyuṭṭhānapahānāya satipaṭṭhānā bhāvitā …pe… sammappadhānā …pe… bojjhaṅgā bhāvitāti?

Have the establishments of mindfulness been developed … right exertions … factors of awakening been developed for the abandoning of the obsession of views for the eighth person?

3.5.7.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe.

It should not be said thus.

3.5.8.1

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa vicikicchāpariyuṭṭhānaṃ pahīnanti?

Is the obsession of doubt abandoned for the eighth person?

3.5.8.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.5.8.3

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa vicikicchāpariyuṭṭhānapahānāya maggo bhāvito …pe… bojjhaṅgā bhāvitāti?

Has the path been developed … have factors of awakening been developed for the abandoning of the obsession of doubt for the eighth person?

3.5.8.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

3.5.9.1

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhipariyuṭṭhānapahānāya maggo abhāvitoti?

Has the path not been developed for the abandoning of the obsession of views for the eighth person?

For if he have not put away wrong views and doubt by the Path, or the other factors, he can surely not have put them away by means that is not the Path, but is worldly, co-intoxicant, etc.… and corrupt.

3.5.9.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.5.9.3

Amaggena pahīnaṃ lokiyena sāsavena …pe… saṅkilesiyenāti?

Is it abandoned without the path, by what is mundane, with taints … corruptible?

3.5.9.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

3.5.9.5

aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhipariyuṭṭhānapahānāya satipaṭṭhānā …pe… bojjhaṅgā abhāvitāti?

Have the establishments of mindfulness … factors of awakening not been developed for the abandoning of the obsession of views for the eighth person?

3.5.9.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.5.9.7

Amaggena pahīnaṃ lokiyena sāsavena …pe… saṅkilesiyenāti?

Is it abandoned without the path, by what is mundane, with taints … corruptible?

3.5.9.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

3.5.10.1

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa vicikicchāpariyuṭṭhānapahānāya maggo abhāvito …pe… satipaṭṭhānā …pe… bojjhaṅgā abhāvitāti?

Has the path not been developed … have the establishments of mindfulness … factors of awakening not been developed for the abandoning of the obsession of doubt for the eighth person?

3.5.10.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.5.10.3

Amaggena pahīnaṃ lokiyena sāsavena …pe… saṅkilesiyenāti?

Is it abandoned without the path, by what is mundane, with taints … corruptible?

3.5.10.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

3.5.11.1

Na vattabbaṃ—

Should it not be said:

Andhaka, Sammitiya: Since you deny that a person of the eighth rank has put away the overt outburst of wrong views and of doubt, I ask you, will these arise any more in him?

3.5.11.2

“aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhipariyuṭṭhānaṃ pahīnan”ti?

“The obsession of views is abandoned for the eighth person”?

Andhaka, Sammitiya: Since you deny that a person of the eighth rank has put away the overt outburst of wrong views and of doubt, I ask you, will these arise any more in him?

3.5.11.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

Andhaka, Sammitiya: Since you deny that a person of the eighth rank has put away the overt outburst of wrong views and of doubt, I ask you, will these arise any more in him?

3.5.11.4

Uppajjissatīti?

Will it arise?

Andhaka, Sammitiya: Since you deny that a person of the eighth rank has put away the overt outburst of wrong views and of doubt, I ask you, will these arise any more in him?

3.5.11.5

Nuppajjissati.

It will not arise.

Theravādin: They will not.

3.5.11.6

Hañci nuppajjissati, tena vata re vattabbe—

If it will not arise, then indeed, sir, it should be said:

Andhaka, Sammitiya: Surely then our proposition is true: they are put away.

3.5.11.7

“aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhipariyuṭṭhānaṃ pahīnan”ti.

“The obsession of views is abandoned for the eighth person.”

3.5.12.1

Na vattabbaṃ—

Should it not be said:

3.5.12.2

“aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa vicikicchāpariyuṭṭhānaṃ pahīnan”ti?

“The obsession of doubt is abandoned for the eighth person”?

3.5.12.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.5.12.4

Uppajjissatīti?

Will it arise?

3.5.12.5

Nuppajjissati.

It will not arise.

3.5.12.6

Hañci nuppajjissati, tena vata re vattabbe—

If it will not arise, then indeed, sir, it should be said—

3.5.12.7

“aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa vicikicchāpariyuṭṭhānaṃ pahīnan”ti.

"The outburst of doubt of the eighth person is abandoned."

3.5.13.1

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhipariyuṭṭhānaṃ nuppajjissatīti katvā pahīnanti?

Is the outburst of view of the eighth person abandoned, considering that it will not arise?

Theravādin: Assuming that the outbursts will not again arise i.e., become manifest in action, you say they are put away. But is the latent bias of wrong opinions, doubt, and belief in mere rule and ritual equally put away simply because these do not arise? And this you are not prepared to admit.

3.5.13.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.5.13.3

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhānusayo nuppajjissatīti katvā pahīnoti?

Is the underlying tendency to view of the eighth person abandoned, considering that it will not arise?

3.5.13.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

3.5.14.1

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhipariyuṭṭhānaṃ nuppajjissatīti katvā pahīnanti?

Is the outburst of view of the eighth person abandoned, considering that it will not arise?

3.5.14.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.5.14.3

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa vicikicchānusayo … sīlabbataparāmāso nuppajjissatīti katvā pahīnoti?

Is the underlying tendency to doubt … adherence to rules and observances of the eighth person abandoned, considering that it will not arise?

3.5.14.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

3.5.15.1

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa vicikicchāpariyuṭṭhānaṃ nuppajjissatīti katvā pahīnanti?

Is the outburst of doubt of the eighth person abandoned, considering that it will not arise?

3.5.15.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

3.5.15.3

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa vicikicchānusayo … sīlabbataparāmāso nuppajjissatīti katvā pahīnoti?

Is the underlying tendency to doubt … adherence to rules and observances of the eighth person abandoned, considering that it will not arise?

3.5.15.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

3.5.16.1

Aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa diṭṭhipariyuṭṭhānaṃ nuppajjissatīti katvā pahīnanti?

Is the outburst of view of the eighth person abandoned, considering that it will not arise?

Once more, you claim that the eighth man has put away wrong views and doubt. But you must then allow that one who has reached the stage in Jhāna-meditation of “adoption” has put them away, and in this you do not concur.

3.5.16.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Once more, you claim that the eighth man has put away wrong views and doubt. But you must then allow that one who has reached the stage in Jhāna-meditation of “adoption” has put them away, and in this you do not concur.

3.5.16.3

Gotrabhuno puggalassa diṭṭhipariyuṭṭhānaṃ nuppajjissatīti katvā pahīnanti?

Is the outburst of view of the gotrabhū person abandoned, considering that it will not arise?

Once more, you claim that the eighth man has put away wrong views and doubt. But you must then allow that one who has reached the stage in Jhāna-meditation of “adoption” has put them away, and in this you do not concur.

3.5.16.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

Once more, you claim that the eighth man has put away wrong views and doubt. But you must then allow that one who has reached the stage in Jhāna-meditation of “adoption” has put them away, and in this you do not concur.

3.5.16.5

aṭṭhamakassa puggalassa vicikicchāpariyuṭṭhānaṃ nuppajjissatīti katvā pahīnanti?

Is the outburst of doubt of the eighth person abandoned, considering that it will not arise?

Once more, you claim that the eighth man has put away wrong views and doubt. But you must then allow that one who has reached the stage in Jhāna-meditation of “adoption” has put them away, and in this you do not concur.

3.5.16.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

Once more, you claim that the eighth man has put away wrong views and doubt. But you must then allow that one who has reached the stage in Jhāna-meditation of “adoption” has put them away, and in this you do not concur.

3.5.16.7

Gotrabhuno puggalassa vicikicchāpariyuṭṭhānaṃ nuppajjissatīti katvā pahīnanti?

Is the outburst of doubt of the gotrabhū person abandoned, considering that it will not arise?

Once more, you claim that the eighth man has put away wrong views and doubt. But you must then allow that one who has reached the stage in Jhāna-meditation of “adoption” has put them away, and in this you do not concur.

3.5.16.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

Once more, you claim that the eighth man has put away wrong views and doubt. But you must then allow that one who has reached the stage in Jhāna-meditation of “adoption” has put them away, and in this you do not concur.

3.5.16.9

Aṭṭhamakakathā niṭṭhitā.

The discussion on the eighth [person] is finished.