Kathavatthu 4.2: Upapattikathā

4.2.1.1

Saha upapattiyā arahāti?

Is one an arahant upon rebirth?

Controverted Point: That one may become Arahant at the moment of rebirth.

4.2.1.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Controverted Point: That one may become Arahant at the moment of rebirth.

4.2.1.3

Saha upapattiyā sotāpanno hotīti?

Is one a stream-enterer upon rebirth?

Theravādin: You affirm this proposition; yet you deny that one can become at birth either a Stream-Winner, Once-Returner, or Never-Returner.

4.2.1.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

4.2.2.1

Saha upapattiyā arahāti?

Is one an arahant upon rebirth?

4.2.2.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

4.2.2.3

Saha upapattiyā sakadāgāmī hotīti?

Is one a once-returner upon rebirth?

4.2.2.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

4.2.3.1

Saha upapattiyā arahāti?

Is one an arahant upon rebirth?

4.2.3.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

4.2.3.3

Saha upapattiyā anāgāmī hotīti?

Is one a non-returner upon rebirth?

4.2.3.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …

4.2.4.1

Saha upapattiyā sotāpanno na hotīti?

Is one not a stream-enterer upon rebirth?

4.2.4.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

4.2.4.3

Hañci saha upapattiyā sotāpanno na hoti, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If one is not a stream-enterer upon rebirth, surely then one should not say:

4.2.4.4

“saha upapattiyā arahā”ti.

“One is an arahant upon rebirth.”

4.2.5.1

Saha upapattiyā sakadāgāmī na hotīti?

Is one not a once-returner upon rebirth?

4.2.5.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

4.2.5.3

Hañci saha upapattiyā sakadāgāmī na hoti, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If he does not become a once-returner together with rebirth, then indeed you should not say—

4.2.5.4

“saha upapattiyā arahā”ti.

“He is an arahant together with rebirth.”

4.2.6.1

Saha upapattiyā anāgāmī na hotīti?

Does he not become a non-returner together with rebirth?

4.2.6.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

4.2.6.3

Hañci saha upapattiyā anāgāmī na hoti, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If he does not become a non-returner together with rebirth, then indeed you should not say—

4.2.6.4

“saha upapattiyā arahā”ti.

“He is an arahant together with rebirth.”

4.2.7.1

Saha upapattiyā arahāti?

Is he an arahant together with rebirth?

And you can name none—not even the greatest—who were Arahants from the time of birth—Sāriputta, or the Great Theras: Moggallāna, Kassapa, Kaccāyana, Koṭṭhika or Panthaka. You deny it in fact of all of them.

4.2.7.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

4.2.7.3

Sāriputto thero saha upapattiyā arahāti?

Was the elder Sāriputta an arahant together with rebirth?

4.2.7.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe.

It should not be said thus.

4.2.7.5

Mahāmoggallāno thero …pe…

The elder Mahāmoggallāna …pe…

4.2.7.6

mahākassapo thero …pe…

the elder Mahākassapa …pe…

4.2.7.7

mahākaccāno thero …pe…

the elder Mahākaccāna …pe…

4.2.7.8

mahākoṭṭhiko thero …pe…

the elder Mahākoṭṭhika …pe…

4.2.7.9

mahāpanthako thero saha upapattiyā arahāti?

was the elder Mahāpanthaka an arahant together with rebirth?

4.2.7.10

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

4.2.8.1

Sāriputto thero na saha upapattiyā arahāti?

Was the elder Sāriputta not an arahant together with rebirth?

4.2.8.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

4.2.8.3

Hañci sāriputto thero na saha upapattiyā arahā, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If the elder Sāriputta was not an arahant together with rebirth, then indeed you should not say—

4.2.8.4

“saha upapattiyā arahā”ti.

“He is an arahant together with rebirth.”

4.2.9.1

Mahāmoggallāno thero …pe…

The elder Mahāmoggallāna …pe…

4.2.9.2

mahākassapo thero …pe…

the elder Mahākassapa …pe…

4.2.9.3

mahākaccāno thero …pe…

the elder Mahākaccāna …pe…

4.2.9.4

mahākoṭṭhiko thero …pe…

the elder Mahākoṭṭhika …pe…

4.2.9.5

mahāpanthako thero na saha upapattiyā arahāti?

was the elder Mahāpanthaka not an arahant together with rebirth?

4.2.9.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

4.2.9.7

Hañci mahāpanthako thero na saha upapattiyā arahā, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If the elder Mahāpanthaka was not an arahant together with rebirth, then indeed you should not say—

4.2.9.8

“saha upapattiyā arahā”ti.

“He is an arahant together with rebirth.”

4.2.10.1

Saha upapattiyā arahāti?

Is he an arahant together with rebirth?

Consider our consciousness at rebirth: it arises because rebirth has been desired. Now such a mind is worldly, co-intoxicant … corrupt. Can it realize Arahantship? Is it of the kind that is called forthleading, that goes toward extinction, enlightenment, disaccumulating, is free from intoxicants … and corruptions? Can one by it put away lust, and hate, delusion … indiscretion? Is it the Ariyan Path, the applications of mindfulness and the rest of the thirty-seven factors of enlightenment? Can it understand Ill, put away its cause, realize its cessation, develop the path thereto? All this you, of course, must deny.

4.2.10.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

4.2.10.3

Upapattesiyena cittena arahattaṃ sacchikaroti lokiyena sāsavena …pe… saṅkilesiyenāti?

Does he realize arahantship with the consciousness belonging to rebirth, [which is] mundane, with taints …pe… corruptive?

4.2.10.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

4.2.11.1

Saha upapattiyā arahāti?

Is he an arahant together with rebirth?

4.2.11.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

4.2.11.3

Upapattesiyaṃ cittaṃ niyyānikaṃ khayagāmī bodhagāmī apacayagāmī anāsavaṃ …pe…

Is the consciousness belonging to rebirth emancipating, leading to destruction [of defilements], leading to awakening, leading to diminishment, without taints …pe…

4.2.11.4

asaṅkilesiyanti?

non-corruptive?

4.2.11.5

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

4.2.12.1

Nanu upapattesiyaṃ cittaṃ aniyyānikaṃ na khayagāmi na bodhagāmi na apacayagāmi sāsavaṃ …pe…

Is not the consciousness belonging to rebirth non-emancipating, not leading to destruction [of defilements], not leading to awakening, not leading to diminishment, with taints …pe…

4.2.12.2

saṅkilesiyanti?

corruptive?

4.2.12.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

4.2.12.4

Hañci upapattesiyaṃ cittaṃ aniyyānikaṃ na khayagāmi na bodhagāmi na apacayagāmi sāsavaṃ …pe… saṅkilesiyaṃ, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If the consciousness belonging to rebirth is non-emancipating, not leading to destruction [of defilements], not leading to awakening, not leading to diminishment, with taints …pe… corruptive, then indeed you should not say—

4.2.12.5

“saha upapattiyā arahā”ti.

“He is an arahant together with rebirth.”

4.2.13.1

Saha upapattiyā arahāti?

Is he an arahant together with rebirth?

4.2.13.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

4.2.13.3

Upapattesiyena cittena rāgaṃ pajahati, dosaṃ pajahati, mohaṃ pajahati, anottappaṃ pajahatīti?

Does he abandon lust, abandon hatred, abandon delusion, abandon shamelessness with the consciousness belonging to rebirth?

4.2.13.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

4.2.14.1

Saha upapattiyā arahāti?

Is he an arahant together with rebirth?

4.2.14.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

4.2.14.3

Upapattesiyaṃ cittaṃ maggo … satipaṭṭhānaṃ …pe… sammappadhānaṃ … iddhipādo … indriyaṃ … balaṃ … bojjhaṅgoti?

Is the consciousness belonging to rebirth the path … application of mindfulness …pe… right exertion … base of psychic power … faculty … power … factor of awakening?

4.2.14.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

4.2.15.1

Saha upapattiyā arahāti?

Is he an arahant together with rebirth?

4.2.15.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

4.2.15.3

Upapattesiyena cittena dukkhaṃ parijānāti, samudayaṃ pajahati, nirodhaṃ sacchikaroti, maggaṃ bhāvetīti?

Does he fully understand suffering, abandon the origin, realize cessation, develop the path with the consciousness belonging to rebirth?

4.2.15.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

4.2.15.5

saha upapattiyā arahāti?

Is he an arahant together with rebirth?

Or is the last act of consciousness at death the realization of the Topmost Path (of Arahantship) and the ensuing act of consciousness at rebirth the Fruit of that Path (or full realization of Arahantship)? You deny again. Then your proposition is proved false.

4.2.15.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

Or is the last act of consciousness at death the realization of the Topmost Path (of Arahantship) and the ensuing act of consciousness at rebirth the Fruit of that Path (or full realization of Arahantship)? You deny again. Then your proposition is proved false.

4.2.15.7

Cuticittaṃ maggacittaṃ upapattesiyaṃ cittaṃ phalacittanti?

Is the decease-consciousness the path-consciousness, [and] the consciousness belonging to rebirth the fruition-consciousness?

Or is the last act of consciousness at death the realization of the Topmost Path (of Arahantship) and the ensuing act of consciousness at rebirth the Fruit of that Path (or full realization of Arahantship)? You deny again. Then your proposition is proved false.

4.2.15.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

Or is the last act of consciousness at death the realization of the Topmost Path (of Arahantship) and the ensuing act of consciousness at rebirth the Fruit of that Path (or full realization of Arahantship)? You deny again. Then your proposition is proved false.

4.2.15.9

Upapattikathā niṭṭhitā.

The discussion on rebirth is finished.