Kathavatthu 2.8: Kukkuḷakathā

2.8.1.1

Sabbe saṅkhārā anodhiṃ katvā kukkuḷāti?

Are all volitional formations, without distinction, hot embers?

Controverted Point: That all conditioned things are absolutely cinderheaps.

2.8.1.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Controverted Point: That all conditioned things are absolutely cinderheaps.

2.8.1.3

Nanu atthi sukhā vedanā, kāyikaṃ sukhaṃ, cetasikaṃ sukhaṃ, dibbaṃ sukhaṃ, mānusakaṃ sukhaṃ, lābhasukhaṃ, sakkārasukhaṃ, yānasukhaṃ, sayanasukhaṃ, issariyasukhaṃ, ādhipaccasukhaṃ, gihisukhaṃ, sāmaññasukhaṃ, sāsavaṃ sukhaṃ, anāsavaṃ sukhaṃ, upadhisukhaṃ, nirūpadhisukhaṃ, sāmisaṃ sukhaṃ, nirāmisaṃ sukhaṃ, sappītikaṃ sukhaṃ, nippītikaṃ sukhaṃ, jhānasukhaṃ, vimuttisukhaṃ, kāmasukhaṃ, nekkhammasukhaṃ, vivekasukhaṃ, upasamasukhaṃ, sambodhasukhanti?

Is there not pleasant feeling, bodily pleasure, mental pleasure, heavenly pleasure, human pleasure, pleasure of gain, pleasure of honor, pleasure of conveyances, pleasure of resting, pleasure of lordship, pleasure of sovereignty, lay pleasure, recluseship pleasure, tainted pleasure, untainted pleasure, pleasure with fuel, pleasure without fuel, worldly pleasure, unworldly pleasure, pleasure with rapture, pleasure without rapture, absorption pleasure, release pleasure, sensual pleasure, renunciation pleasure, seclusion pleasure, tranquility pleasure, and awakening pleasure?

Theravādin: You affirm this; but is there not such a thing as pleasurable feeling, bodily pleasure, mental pleasure, celestial happiness, human happiness, the pleasures of gain, of being honoured, of riding-and-driving, of resting, the pleasures of ruling, of administrating, of domestic-and-secular life, of the religious life, pleasures involved in the intoxicants and pleasures that are not, the happiness of Nibbāna, both while stuff of life remains and when none remains, worldly and spiritual pleasures, happiness with zest and without zest, Jhāna-happiness, the bliss of liberty, pleasures of sense-desire, and the happiness of renunciation, the bliss of solitude, of peace, of enlightenment? Of course. How then can you maintain your general affirmation?

2.8.1.4

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: You affirm this; but is there not such a thing as pleasurable feeling, bodily pleasure, mental pleasure, celestial happiness, human happiness, the pleasures of gain, of being honoured, of riding-and-driving, of resting, the pleasures of ruling, of administrating, of domestic-and-secular life, of the religious life, pleasures involved in the intoxicants and pleasures that are not, the happiness of Nibbāna, both while stuff of life remains and when none remains, worldly and spiritual pleasures, happiness with zest and without zest, Jhāna-happiness, the bliss of liberty, pleasures of sense-desire, and the happiness of renunciation, the bliss of solitude, of peace, of enlightenment? Of course. How then can you maintain your general affirmation?

2.8.1.5

Hañci atthi sukhā vedanā …pe…

If there is pleasant feeling … and so forth …

Theravādin: You affirm this; but is there not such a thing as pleasurable feeling, bodily pleasure, mental pleasure, celestial happiness, human happiness, the pleasures of gain, of being honoured, of riding-and-driving, of resting, the pleasures of ruling, of administrating, of domestic-and-secular life, of the religious life, pleasures involved in the intoxicants and pleasures that are not, the happiness of Nibbāna, both while stuff of life remains and when none remains, worldly and spiritual pleasures, happiness with zest and without zest, Jhāna-happiness, the bliss of liberty, pleasures of sense-desire, and the happiness of renunciation, the bliss of solitude, of peace, of enlightenment? Of course. How then can you maintain your general affirmation?

2.8.1.6

sambodhasukhaṃ, no ca vata re vattabbe—

awakening pleasure, then truly, friend, it should not be said:

Theravādin: You affirm this; but is there not such a thing as pleasurable feeling, bodily pleasure, mental pleasure, celestial happiness, human happiness, the pleasures of gain, of being honoured, of riding-and-driving, of resting, the pleasures of ruling, of administrating, of domestic-and-secular life, of the religious life, pleasures involved in the intoxicants and pleasures that are not, the happiness of Nibbāna, both while stuff of life remains and when none remains, worldly and spiritual pleasures, happiness with zest and without zest, Jhāna-happiness, the bliss of liberty, pleasures of sense-desire, and the happiness of renunciation, the bliss of solitude, of peace, of enlightenment? Of course. How then can you maintain your general affirmation?

2.8.1.7

“sabbe saṅkhārā anodhiṃ katvā kukkuḷā”ti.

“All volitional formations, without distinction, are hot embers.”

Theravādin: You affirm this; but is there not such a thing as pleasurable feeling, bodily pleasure, mental pleasure, celestial happiness, human happiness, the pleasures of gain, of being honoured, of riding-and-driving, of resting, the pleasures of ruling, of administrating, of domestic-and-secular life, of the religious life, pleasures involved in the intoxicants and pleasures that are not, the happiness of Nibbāna, both while stuff of life remains and when none remains, worldly and spiritual pleasures, happiness with zest and without zest, Jhāna-happiness, the bliss of liberty, pleasures of sense-desire, and the happiness of renunciation, the bliss of solitude, of peace, of enlightenment? Of course. How then can you maintain your general affirmation?

2.8.2.1

Sabbe saṅkhārā anodhiṃ katvā kukkuḷāti?

Are all volitional formations, without distinction, hot embers?

Gokulika: My proposition then is wrong? But was it not said by the Exalted One:

2.8.2.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

2.8.2.3

Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā vedanā kāyikaṃ dukkhaṃ cetasikaṃ dukkhaṃ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassaupāyāsāti?

Are all volitional formations painful feeling, bodily pain, mental pain, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair?

2.8.2.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe.

It should not be said thus.

2.8.3.1

Na vattabbaṃ—

Should it not be said:

2.8.3.2

“sabbe saṅkhārā anodhiṃ katvā kukkuḷā”ti?

“All volitional formations, without distinction, are hot embers”?

2.8.3.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

2.8.3.4

Nanu vuttaṃ bhagavatā—

Was it not said by the Blessed One:

2.8.3.5

“sabbaṃ, bhikkhave, ādittaṃ.

“All, mendicants, is on fire.

“All is on fire, O bhikkhus! How is everything on fire? The eye is on fire; visible objects, visual consciousness, visual contact and the pleasure, the pain, the neutral feeling therefrom—all is on fire. On fire wherewithal? I tell you, on fire with the fires of passion, hate, and ignorance; with the fires of birth, decay, and death; with the fires of sorrow, lamentation, ill, grief, and despair. All the field of sense, all the field of mind, all the feeling therefrom is on fire with those fires”?

2.8.3.6

Kiñca, bhikkhave, sabbaṃ ādittaṃ?

And what, mendicants, is all that is on fire?

“All is on fire, O bhikkhus! How is everything on fire? The eye is on fire; visible objects, visual consciousness, visual contact and the pleasure, the pain, the neutral feeling therefrom—all is on fire. On fire wherewithal? I tell you, on fire with the fires of passion, hate, and ignorance; with the fires of birth, decay, and death; with the fires of sorrow, lamentation, ill, grief, and despair. All the field of sense, all the field of mind, all the feeling therefrom is on fire with those fires”?

2.8.3.7

Cakkhuṃ, bhikkhave, ādittaṃ, rūpā ādittā, cakkhuviññāṇaṃ ādittaṃ, cakkhusamphasso āditto;

The eye, mendicants, is on fire; material forms are on fire; eye-consciousness is on fire; eye-contact is on fire;

“All is on fire, O bhikkhus! How is everything on fire? The eye is on fire; visible objects, visual consciousness, visual contact and the pleasure, the pain, the neutral feeling therefrom—all is on fire. On fire wherewithal? I tell you, on fire with the fires of passion, hate, and ignorance; with the fires of birth, decay, and death; with the fires of sorrow, lamentation, ill, grief, and despair. All the field of sense, all the field of mind, all the feeling therefrom is on fire with those fires”?

2.8.3.8

yamidaṃ cakkhusamphassapaccayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā, tampi ādittaṃ.

and whatever experience arises dependent on eye-contact, whether pleasant, painful, or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, that too is on fire.

“All is on fire, O bhikkhus! How is everything on fire? The eye is on fire; visible objects, visual consciousness, visual contact and the pleasure, the pain, the neutral feeling therefrom—all is on fire. On fire wherewithal? I tell you, on fire with the fires of passion, hate, and ignorance; with the fires of birth, decay, and death; with the fires of sorrow, lamentation, ill, grief, and despair. All the field of sense, all the field of mind, all the feeling therefrom is on fire with those fires”?

2.8.3.9

Kena ādittaṃ?

On fire with what?

“All is on fire, O bhikkhus! How is everything on fire? The eye is on fire; visible objects, visual consciousness, visual contact and the pleasure, the pain, the neutral feeling therefrom—all is on fire. On fire wherewithal? I tell you, on fire with the fires of passion, hate, and ignorance; with the fires of birth, decay, and death; with the fires of sorrow, lamentation, ill, grief, and despair. All the field of sense, all the field of mind, all the feeling therefrom is on fire with those fires”?

2.8.3.10

‘Rāgagginā dosagginā mohagginā ādittaṃ, jātiyā jarāya maraṇena sokehi paridevehi dukkhehi domanassehi upāyāsehi ādittan’ti vadāmi.

‘On fire with the fire of lust, with the fire of hatred, with the fire of delusion; on fire with birth, aging, death, sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, and despairs,’ I say.

“All is on fire, O bhikkhus! How is everything on fire? The eye is on fire; visible objects, visual consciousness, visual contact and the pleasure, the pain, the neutral feeling therefrom—all is on fire. On fire wherewithal? I tell you, on fire with the fires of passion, hate, and ignorance; with the fires of birth, decay, and death; with the fires of sorrow, lamentation, ill, grief, and despair. All the field of sense, all the field of mind, all the feeling therefrom is on fire with those fires”?

2.8.3.11

Sotaṃ ādittaṃ, saddā ādittā …pe…

The ear is on fire, sounds are on fire … and so forth …

“All is on fire, O bhikkhus! How is everything on fire? The eye is on fire; visible objects, visual consciousness, visual contact and the pleasure, the pain, the neutral feeling therefrom—all is on fire. On fire wherewithal? I tell you, on fire with the fires of passion, hate, and ignorance; with the fires of birth, decay, and death; with the fires of sorrow, lamentation, ill, grief, and despair. All the field of sense, all the field of mind, all the feeling therefrom is on fire with those fires”?

2.8.3.12

ghānaṃ ādittaṃ, gandhā ādittā …pe…

the nose is on fire, odors are on fire … and so forth …

“All is on fire, O bhikkhus! How is everything on fire? The eye is on fire; visible objects, visual consciousness, visual contact and the pleasure, the pain, the neutral feeling therefrom—all is on fire. On fire wherewithal? I tell you, on fire with the fires of passion, hate, and ignorance; with the fires of birth, decay, and death; with the fires of sorrow, lamentation, ill, grief, and despair. All the field of sense, all the field of mind, all the feeling therefrom is on fire with those fires”?

2.8.3.13

jivhā ādittā, rasā ādittā …pe…

the tongue is on fire, tastes are on fire … and so forth …

“All is on fire, O bhikkhus! How is everything on fire? The eye is on fire; visible objects, visual consciousness, visual contact and the pleasure, the pain, the neutral feeling therefrom—all is on fire. On fire wherewithal? I tell you, on fire with the fires of passion, hate, and ignorance; with the fires of birth, decay, and death; with the fires of sorrow, lamentation, ill, grief, and despair. All the field of sense, all the field of mind, all the feeling therefrom is on fire with those fires”?

2.8.3.14

kāyo āditto, phoṭṭhabbā ādittā …pe…

the body is on fire, tangibles are on fire … and so forth …

“All is on fire, O bhikkhus! How is everything on fire? The eye is on fire; visible objects, visual consciousness, visual contact and the pleasure, the pain, the neutral feeling therefrom—all is on fire. On fire wherewithal? I tell you, on fire with the fires of passion, hate, and ignorance; with the fires of birth, decay, and death; with the fires of sorrow, lamentation, ill, grief, and despair. All the field of sense, all the field of mind, all the feeling therefrom is on fire with those fires”?

2.8.3.15

mano āditto, dhammā ādittā, manoviññāṇaṃ ādittaṃ, manosamphasso āditto;

the mind is on fire, mental phenomena are on fire, mind-consciousness is on fire, mind-contact is on fire;

“All is on fire, O bhikkhus! How is everything on fire? The eye is on fire; visible objects, visual consciousness, visual contact and the pleasure, the pain, the neutral feeling therefrom—all is on fire. On fire wherewithal? I tell you, on fire with the fires of passion, hate, and ignorance; with the fires of birth, decay, and death; with the fires of sorrow, lamentation, ill, grief, and despair. All the field of sense, all the field of mind, all the feeling therefrom is on fire with those fires”?

2.8.3.16

yamidaṃ manosamphassapaccayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā, tampi ādittaṃ.

and whatever experience arises dependent on mind-contact, whether pleasant, painful, or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, that too is on fire.

“All is on fire, O bhikkhus! How is everything on fire? The eye is on fire; visible objects, visual consciousness, visual contact and the pleasure, the pain, the neutral feeling therefrom—all is on fire. On fire wherewithal? I tell you, on fire with the fires of passion, hate, and ignorance; with the fires of birth, decay, and death; with the fires of sorrow, lamentation, ill, grief, and despair. All the field of sense, all the field of mind, all the feeling therefrom is on fire with those fires”?

2.8.3.17

Kena ādittaṃ?

On fire with what?

“All is on fire, O bhikkhus! How is everything on fire? The eye is on fire; visible objects, visual consciousness, visual contact and the pleasure, the pain, the neutral feeling therefrom—all is on fire. On fire wherewithal? I tell you, on fire with the fires of passion, hate, and ignorance; with the fires of birth, decay, and death; with the fires of sorrow, lamentation, ill, grief, and despair. All the field of sense, all the field of mind, all the feeling therefrom is on fire with those fires”?

2.8.3.18

‘Rāgagginā dosagginā mohagginā ādittaṃ, jātiyā jarāya maraṇena sokehi paridevehi dukkhehi domanassehi upāyāsehi ādittan’ti vadāmī”ti.

‘On fire with the fire of lust, with the fire of hatred, with the fire of delusion; on fire with birth, aging, death, sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, and despairs,’ I say”?

“All is on fire, O bhikkhus! How is everything on fire? The eye is on fire; visible objects, visual consciousness, visual contact and the pleasure, the pain, the neutral feeling therefrom—all is on fire. On fire wherewithal? I tell you, on fire with the fires of passion, hate, and ignorance; with the fires of birth, decay, and death; with the fires of sorrow, lamentation, ill, grief, and despair. All the field of sense, all the field of mind, all the feeling therefrom is on fire with those fires”?

2.8.3.19

Attheva suttantoti?

Is there such a discourse?

Surely then all conditioned things are mere cinderheaps absolutely.

2.8.3.20

Āmantā.

Yes.

Surely then all conditioned things are mere cinderheaps absolutely.

2.8.3.21

Tena hi vattabbaṃ—

Therefore, it should be said:

Surely then all conditioned things are mere cinderheaps absolutely.

2.8.3.22

“sabbe saṅkhārā anodhiṃ katvā kukkuḷā”ti.

“All volitional formations, without distinction, are hot embers.”

Surely then all conditioned things are mere cinderheaps absolutely.

2.8.4.1

Sabbe saṅkhārā anodhiṃ katvā kukkuḷāti?

Are all volitional formations, without distinction, hot embers?

Theravādin: But was it not also said by the Exalted One:

2.8.4.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: But was it not also said by the Exalted One:

2.8.4.3

Nanu vuttaṃ bhagavatā—

Was it not said by the Blessed One:

Theravādin: But was it not also said by the Exalted One:

2.8.4.4

“pañcime, bhikkhave, kāmaguṇā.

“Mendicants, there are these five cords of sensual pleasure.

“There are these five pleasures of sense, bhikkhus—namely, visible objects seen through the eye as desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive; audible objects, odorous, sapid, tangible objects, desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive …”?

2.8.4.5

Katame pañca?

Which five?

“There are these five pleasures of sense, bhikkhus—namely, visible objects seen through the eye as desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive; audible objects, odorous, sapid, tangible objects, desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive …”?

2.8.4.6

Cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā, sotaviññeyyā saddā …pe…

Material forms cognizable by the eye that are desirable, charming, agreeable, pleasing, linked to sensuality, inciting lust; sounds cognizable by the ear … and so forth …

“There are these five pleasures of sense, bhikkhus—namely, visible objects seen through the eye as desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive; audible objects, odorous, sapid, tangible objects, desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive …”?

2.8.4.7

ghānaviññeyyā gandhā …

odors cognizable by the nose …

“There are these five pleasures of sense, bhikkhus—namely, visible objects seen through the eye as desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive; audible objects, odorous, sapid, tangible objects, desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive …”?

2.8.4.8

jivhāviññeyyā rasā …

tastes cognizable by the tongue …

“There are these five pleasures of sense, bhikkhus—namely, visible objects seen through the eye as desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive; audible objects, odorous, sapid, tangible objects, desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive …”?

2.8.4.9

kāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā.

tangibles cognizable by the body that are desirable, charming, agreeable, pleasing, linked to sensuality, inciting lust.

“There are these five pleasures of sense, bhikkhus—namely, visible objects seen through the eye as desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive; audible objects, odorous, sapid, tangible objects, desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive …”?

2.8.4.10

Ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca kāmaguṇā”ti.

These, mendicants, are the five cords of sensual pleasure”?

“There are these five pleasures of sense, bhikkhus—namely, visible objects seen through the eye as desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive; audible objects, odorous, sapid, tangible objects, desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive …”?

2.8.4.11

Attheva suttantoti?

Is there such a discourse?

“There are these five pleasures of sense, bhikkhus—namely, visible objects seen through the eye as desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive; audible objects, odorous, sapid, tangible objects, desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive …”?

2.8.4.12

Āmantā.

Yes.

“There are these five pleasures of sense, bhikkhus—namely, visible objects seen through the eye as desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive; audible objects, odorous, sapid, tangible objects, desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive …”?

2.8.4.13

Tena hi na vattabbaṃ—

Therefore, it should not be said:

“There are these five pleasures of sense, bhikkhus—namely, visible objects seen through the eye as desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive; audible objects, odorous, sapid, tangible objects, desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive …”?

2.8.4.14

“sabbe saṅkhārā anodhiṃ katvā kukkuḷā”ti.

“All volitional formations, without distinction, are hot embers.”

“There are these five pleasures of sense, bhikkhus—namely, visible objects seen through the eye as desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive; audible objects, odorous, sapid, tangible objects, desirable, pleasing, delightful, lovely, adapted to sense-desire, seductive …”?

2.8.5.1

Na vattabbaṃ—

Should it not be said:

Gokulika: But was it not also said by the Exalted One:

2.8.5.2

“sabbe saṅkhārā anodhiṃ katvā kukkuḷā”ti?

Should it not be said that “all volitional formations, without distinction, are a pit of hot coals”?

Gokulika: But was it not also said by the Exalted One:

2.8.5.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

Gokulika: But was it not also said by the Exalted One:

2.8.5.4

Nanu vuttaṃ bhagavatā—

Was it not said by the Blessed One:

Gokulika: But was it not also said by the Exalted One:

2.8.5.5

“lābhā vo, bhikkhave, suladdhaṃ vo, bhikkhave, khaṇo vo paṭiladdho brahmacariyavāsāya.

“It is gain for you, monks, well gained for you, monks, that you have gained the opportunity to live the spiritual life.

“A gain is yours, O bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Hells have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye is undesired only, not desired; whatsoever object is sensed by ear, smell, taste, touch, mind, is undesired only, not desired; is unpleasant only, not pleasant; is unlovely only, not lovely”?

2.8.5.6

Diṭṭhā mayā, bhikkhave, cha phassāyatanikā nāma nirayā.

Monks, I have seen the hells called the six bases of contact.

“A gain is yours, O bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Hells have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye is undesired only, not desired; whatsoever object is sensed by ear, smell, taste, touch, mind, is undesired only, not desired; is unpleasant only, not pleasant; is unlovely only, not lovely”?

2.8.5.7

Tattha yaṃ kiñci cakkhunā rūpaṃ passati, aniṭṭharūpaññeva passati no iṭṭharūpaṃ, akantarūpaññeva passati no kantarūpaṃ, amanāparūpaññeva passati no manāparūpaṃ.

There, whatever form one sees with the eye, one sees only an undesirable form, not a desirable form; one sees only an unpleasing form, not a pleasing form; one sees only an disagreeable form, not an agreeable form.

“A gain is yours, O bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Hells have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye is undesired only, not desired; whatsoever object is sensed by ear, smell, taste, touch, mind, is undesired only, not desired; is unpleasant only, not pleasant; is unlovely only, not lovely”?

2.8.5.8

Yaṃ kiñci sotena saddaṃ suṇāti …pe…

Whatever sound one hears with the ear …

“A gain is yours, O bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Hells have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye is undesired only, not desired; whatsoever object is sensed by ear, smell, taste, touch, mind, is undesired only, not desired; is unpleasant only, not pleasant; is unlovely only, not lovely”?

2.8.5.9

ghānena gandhaṃ ghāyati …

smells an odour with the nose …

“A gain is yours, O bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Hells have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye is undesired only, not desired; whatsoever object is sensed by ear, smell, taste, touch, mind, is undesired only, not desired; is unpleasant only, not pleasant; is unlovely only, not lovely”?

2.8.5.10

jivhāya rasaṃ sāyati …

tastes a flavour with the tongue …

“A gain is yours, O bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Hells have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye is undesired only, not desired; whatsoever object is sensed by ear, smell, taste, touch, mind, is undesired only, not desired; is unpleasant only, not pleasant; is unlovely only, not lovely”?

2.8.5.11

kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṃ phusati …

touches a tangible with the body …

“A gain is yours, O bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Hells have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye is undesired only, not desired; whatsoever object is sensed by ear, smell, taste, touch, mind, is undesired only, not desired; is unpleasant only, not pleasant; is unlovely only, not lovely”?

2.8.5.12

manasā dhammaṃ vijānāti, aniṭṭharūpaññeva vijānāti no iṭṭharūpaṃ, akantarūpaññeva vijānāti no kantarūpaṃ, amanāparūpaññeva vijānāti no manāparūpan”ti.

cognizes a mind-object with the mind, one cognizes only an undesirable form, not a desirable form; one cognizes only an unpleasing form, not a pleasing form; one cognizes only an disagreeable form, not an agreeable form”?

“A gain is yours, O bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Hells have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye is undesired only, not desired; whatsoever object is sensed by ear, smell, taste, touch, mind, is undesired only, not desired; is unpleasant only, not pleasant; is unlovely only, not lovely”?

2.8.5.13

Attheva suttantoti?

Does such a discourse exist?

“A gain is yours, O bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Hells have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye is undesired only, not desired; whatsoever object is sensed by ear, smell, taste, touch, mind, is undesired only, not desired; is unpleasant only, not pleasant; is unlovely only, not lovely”?

2.8.5.14

Āmantā.

Yes.

“A gain is yours, O bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Hells have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye is undesired only, not desired; whatsoever object is sensed by ear, smell, taste, touch, mind, is undesired only, not desired; is unpleasant only, not pleasant; is unlovely only, not lovely”?

2.8.5.15

Tena hi vattabbaṃ—

Then indeed it should be said:

“A gain is yours, O bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Hells have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye is undesired only, not desired; whatsoever object is sensed by ear, smell, taste, touch, mind, is undesired only, not desired; is unpleasant only, not pleasant; is unlovely only, not lovely”?

2.8.5.16

“sabbe saṅkhārā anodhiṃ katvā kukkuḷā”ti.

“All volitional formations, without distinction, are a pit of hot coals.”

“A gain is yours, O bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Hells have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye is undesired only, not desired; whatsoever object is sensed by ear, smell, taste, touch, mind, is undesired only, not desired; is unpleasant only, not pleasant; is unlovely only, not lovely”?

2.8.6.1

Sabbe saṅkhārā anodhiṃ katvā kukkuḷāti?

Are all volitional formations, without distinction, a pit of hot coals?

Theravādin: But was it not also said by the Exalted One:

2.8.6.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: But was it not also said by the Exalted One:

2.8.6.3

Nanu vuttaṃ bhagavatā—

Was it not said by the Blessed One:

Theravādin: But was it not also said by the Exalted One:

2.8.6.4

“lābhā vo, bhikkhave, suladdhaṃ vo, bhikkhave, khaṇo vo paṭiladdho brahmacariyavāsāya.

“It is gain for you, monks, well gained for you, monks, that you have gained the opportunity to live the spiritual life.

“A gain is yours, bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Heavens have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye, or otherwise sensed, is desired only, not undesired; is pleasing only, not unpleasing; is lovely only, not unlovely”?

2.8.6.5

Diṭṭhā mayā, bhikkhave, cha phassāyatanikā nāma saggā.

Monks, I have seen the heavens called the six bases of contact.

“A gain is yours, bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Heavens have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye, or otherwise sensed, is desired only, not undesired; is pleasing only, not unpleasing; is lovely only, not unlovely”?

2.8.6.6

Tattha yaṃ kiñci cakkhunā rūpaṃ passati, iṭṭharūpaññeva passati no aniṭṭharūpaṃ, kantarūpaññeva passati no akantarūpaṃ, manāparūpaññeva passati no amanāparūpaṃ.

There, whatever form one sees with the eye, one sees only a desirable form, not an undesirable form; one sees only a pleasing form, not an unpleasing form; one sees only an agreeable form, not a disagreeable form.

“A gain is yours, bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Heavens have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye, or otherwise sensed, is desired only, not undesired; is pleasing only, not unpleasing; is lovely only, not unlovely”?

2.8.6.7

Yaṃ kiñci sotena saddaṃ suṇāti …pe…

Whatever sound one hears with the ear …

“A gain is yours, bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Heavens have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye, or otherwise sensed, is desired only, not undesired; is pleasing only, not unpleasing; is lovely only, not unlovely”?

2.8.6.8

ghānena gandhaṃ ghāyati …

smells an odour with the nose …

“A gain is yours, bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Heavens have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye, or otherwise sensed, is desired only, not undesired; is pleasing only, not unpleasing; is lovely only, not unlovely”?

2.8.6.9

jivhāya rasaṃ sāyati …

tastes a flavour with the tongue …

“A gain is yours, bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Heavens have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye, or otherwise sensed, is desired only, not undesired; is pleasing only, not unpleasing; is lovely only, not unlovely”?

2.8.6.10

kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṃ phusati …

touches a tangible with the body …

“A gain is yours, bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Heavens have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye, or otherwise sensed, is desired only, not undesired; is pleasing only, not unpleasing; is lovely only, not unlovely”?

2.8.6.11

manasā dhammaṃ vijānāti, iṭṭharūpaññeva vijānāti no aniṭṭharūpaṃ, kantarūpaññeva vijānāti no akantarūpaṃ, manāparūpaññeva vijānāti no amanāparūpan”ti.

cognizes a mind-object with the mind, one cognizes only a desirable form, not an undesirable form; one cognizes only a pleasing form, not an unpleasing form; one cognizes only an agreeable form, not a disagreeable form”?

“A gain is yours, bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Heavens have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye, or otherwise sensed, is desired only, not undesired; is pleasing only, not unpleasing; is lovely only, not unlovely”?

2.8.6.12

Attheva suttantoti?

Does such a discourse exist?

“A gain is yours, bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Heavens have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye, or otherwise sensed, is desired only, not undesired; is pleasing only, not unpleasing; is lovely only, not unlovely”?

2.8.6.13

Āmantā.

Yes.

“A gain is yours, bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Heavens have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye, or otherwise sensed, is desired only, not undesired; is pleasing only, not unpleasing; is lovely only, not unlovely”?

2.8.6.14

Tena hi na vattabbaṃ—

Then indeed it should not be said:

“A gain is yours, bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Heavens have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye, or otherwise sensed, is desired only, not undesired; is pleasing only, not unpleasing; is lovely only, not unlovely”?

2.8.6.15

“sabbe saṅkhārā anodhiṃ katvā kukkuḷā”ti.

“All volitional formations, without distinction, are a pit of hot coals.”

“A gain is yours, bhikkhus! well have ye won, for ye have discerned the hour for living the religious life. Heavens have I seen, bhikkhus, belonging to the six fields of contact. Hereof whatsoever object is seen by the eye, or otherwise sensed, is desired only, not undesired; is pleasing only, not unpleasing; is lovely only, not unlovely”?

2.8.7.1

Na vattabbaṃ—

Should it not be said:

Gokulika: But was it not said by the Exalted One:

2.8.7.2

“sabbe saṅkhārā anodhiṃ katvā kukkuḷā”ti?

“All volitional formations, without distinction, are a pit of hot coals”?

Gokulika: But was it not said by the Exalted One:

2.8.7.3

Āmantā.

Yes.

Gokulika: But was it not said by the Exalted One:

2.8.7.4

Nanu “yadaniccaṃ taṃ dukkhaṃ”, vuttaṃ bhagavatā—

Is it not said by the Blessed One that “what is impermanent, that is suffering”,

“The impermanent involves Ill; all conditioned things are impermanent”?

2.8.7.5

“sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā”ti?

[and] “all volitional formations are impermanent”?

“The impermanent involves Ill; all conditioned things are impermanent”?

2.8.7.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

“The impermanent involves Ill; all conditioned things are impermanent”?

2.8.7.7

Hañci “yadaniccaṃ taṃ dukkhaṃ”, vuttaṃ bhagavatā—

If it is said by the Blessed One that “what is impermanent, that is suffering”,

“The impermanent involves Ill; all conditioned things are impermanent”?

2.8.7.8

“sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā”, tena vata re vattabbe—

[and] “all volitional formations are impermanent”, then indeed, you should say:

“The impermanent involves Ill; all conditioned things are impermanent”?

2.8.7.9

“sabbe saṅkhārā anodhiṃ katvā kukkuḷā”ti.

“All volitional formations, without distinction, are a pit of hot coals.”

“The impermanent involves Ill; all conditioned things are impermanent”?

2.8.8.1

Sabbe saṅkhārā anodhiṃ katvā kukkuḷāti?

Are all volitional formations, without distinction, a pit of hot coals?

Theravādin: But take giving: does that bring forth fruit that is undesired, unpleasant, disagreeable, adulterated? Does it bear, and result in, sorrow? Or take virtue, the keeping of feastdays, religious training, and religious life: do they bring forth such fruit, etc.? Do they not rather have the opposite result? How then can you affirm your general proposition?

2.8.8.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

2.8.8.3

Dānaṃ aniṭṭhaphalaṃ akantaphalaṃ amanuññaphalaṃ secanakaphalaṃ dukkhudrayaṃ dukkhavipākanti?

Does giving have an undesirable fruit, an unpleasing fruit, a disagreeable fruit, a tainted fruit, yielding suffering, resulting in suffering?

2.8.8.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe.

It should not be said thus.

2.8.9.1

Sīlaṃ …pe…

Does morality …

2.8.9.2

uposatho …pe…

the observance day …

2.8.9.3

bhāvanā …pe…

meditative development …

2.8.9.4

brahmacariyaṃ aniṭṭhaphalaṃ akantaphalaṃ amanuññaphalaṃ secanakaphalaṃ dukkhudrayaṃ dukkhavipākanti?

the spiritual life have an undesirable fruit, an unpleasing fruit, a disagreeable fruit, a tainted fruit, yielding suffering, resulting in suffering?

2.8.9.5

Na hevaṃ vattabbe.

It should not be said thus.

2.8.10.1

Nanu dānaṃ iṭṭhaphalaṃ kantaphalaṃ manuññaphalaṃ asecanakaphalaṃ sukhudrayaṃ sukhavipākanti?

Does giving not have a desirable fruit, a pleasing fruit, an agreeable fruit, an untainted fruit, yielding happiness, resulting in happiness?

2.8.10.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

2.8.10.3

Hañci dānaṃ iṭṭhaphalaṃ kantaphalaṃ manuññaphalaṃ asecanakaphalaṃ sukhudrayaṃ sukhavipākaṃ, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If giving has a desirable fruit, a pleasing fruit, an agreeable fruit, an untainted fruit, yielding happiness, resulting in happiness, then surely you should not say:

2.8.10.4

“sabbe saṅkhārā anodhiṃ katvā kukkuḷā”ti.

“All volitional formations, without distinction, are a pit of hot coals.”

2.8.11.1

Nanu sīlaṃ …

Does morality not …

2.8.11.2

uposatho …

the observance day …

2.8.11.3

bhāvanā …

meditative development …

2.8.11.4

brahmacariyaṃ iṭṭhaphalaṃ kantaphalaṃ manuññaphalaṃ asecanakaphalaṃ sukhudrayaṃ sukhavipākanti?

the spiritual life have a desirable fruit, a pleasing fruit, an agreeable fruit, an untainted fruit, yielding happiness, resulting in happiness?

2.8.11.5

Āmantā.

Yes.

2.8.11.6

Hañci brahmacariyaṃ iṭṭhaphalaṃ kantaphalaṃ manuññaphalaṃ asecanakaphalaṃ sukhudrayaṃ sukhavipākanti, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If the spiritual life has a desirable fruit, a pleasing fruit, an agreeable fruit, an untainted fruit, yielding happiness, resulting in happiness, then surely you should not say:

2.8.11.7

“sabbe saṅkhārā anodhiṃ katvā kukkuḷā”ti.

“All volitional formations, without distinction, are a pit of hot coals.”

2.8.12.1

Sabbe saṅkhārā anodhiṃ katvā kukkuḷāti?

Are all volitional formations, without distinction, a pit of hot coals?

Finally, was it not said by the Exalted One:

2.8.12.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Finally, was it not said by the Exalted One:

2.8.12.3

Nanu vuttaṃ bhagavatā—

Was it not said by the Blessed One:

Finally, was it not said by the Exalted One:

2.8.13.1

“Sukho viveko tuṭṭhassa,

“Blissful is seclusion for the contented one,

“Happy his solitude who, glad at heart,
Hath learnt the Norm and doth the vision see!
Happy is that benignity towards
The world which on no creature worketh harm.
Happy the freedom from all lust, th' ascent
Past and beyond the needs of sense-desires.
He who doth crush the great “I am”-conceit:
This, even this, is happiness supreme.
This happiness by happiness is won,
Unending happiness is this alone.
The Threefold Wisdom hath he made his own.
This, even this, is happiness supreme”?

2.8.13.2

sutadhammassa passato;

who has heard the teaching and who sees;

2.8.13.3

Abyāpajjaṃ sukhaṃ loke,

blissful is non-affliction in the world,

2.8.13.4

pāṇabhūtesu saṃyamo.

restraint towards living beings.

2.8.14.1

Sukhā virāgatā loke,

Blissful is dispassion in the world,

2.8.14.2

kāmānaṃ samatikkamo;

the transcendence of sensual pleasures;

2.8.14.3

Asmimānassa yo vinayo,

the removal of the conceit ‘I am’—

2.8.14.4

etaṃ ve paramaṃ sukhaṃ.

this is indeed the supreme bliss.

2.8.15.1

Taṃ sukhena sukhaṃ pattaṃ,

That bliss is reached through bliss,

2.8.15.2

accantasukhameva taṃ;

that is bliss absolute indeed;

2.8.15.3

Tisso vijjā anuppattā,

the three knowledges are attained—

2.8.15.4

etaṃ ve paramaṃ sukhan”ti.

this is indeed the supreme bliss”?

2.8.16.1

Attheva suttantoti?

Is there such a discourse?

You admit the Suttanta says this? How then can you maintain your proposition?

2.8.16.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

You admit the Suttanta says this? How then can you maintain your proposition?

2.8.16.3

Tena hi na vattabbaṃ—

Therefore it should not be said:

You admit the Suttanta says this? How then can you maintain your proposition?

2.8.16.4

“sabbe saṅkhārā anodhiṃ katvā kukkuḷā”ti.

“All volitional formations without limit are hot embers.”

You admit the Suttanta says this? How then can you maintain your proposition?

2.8.16.5

Kukkuḷakathā niṭṭhitā.

The discussion on hot embers is finished.