Kathavatthu 8.2: Antarābhavakathā

8.2.1.1

Atthi antarābhavoti?

Is there an intermediate existence?

Theravādin: If there be such a state, you must identify it with either the Kāma-life, or Rūpa-life, or Arūpa-life, which you refuse to do … .

8.2.1.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: If there be such a state, you must identify it with either the Kāma-life, or Rūpa-life, or Arūpa-life, which you refuse to do … .

8.2.1.3

Kāmabhavoti?

Is it sense-sphere existence?

Theravādin: If there be such a state, you must identify it with either the Kāma-life, or Rūpa-life, or Arūpa-life, which you refuse to do … .

8.2.1.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Theravādin: If there be such a state, you must identify it with either the Kāma-life, or Rūpa-life, or Arūpa-life, which you refuse to do … .

8.2.1.5

atthi antarābhavoti?

Is there an intermediate existence?

Theravādin: If there be such a state, you must identify it with either the Kāma-life, or Rūpa-life, or Arūpa-life, which you refuse to do … .

8.2.1.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: If there be such a state, you must identify it with either the Kāma-life, or Rūpa-life, or Arūpa-life, which you refuse to do … .

8.2.1.7

Rūpabhavoti?

Is it form-sphere existence?

Theravādin: If there be such a state, you must identify it with either the Kāma-life, or Rūpa-life, or Arūpa-life, which you refuse to do … .

8.2.1.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Theravādin: If there be such a state, you must identify it with either the Kāma-life, or Rūpa-life, or Arūpa-life, which you refuse to do … .

8.2.1.9

atthi antarābhavoti?

Is there an intermediate existence?

Theravādin: If there be such a state, you must identify it with either the Kāma-life, or Rūpa-life, or Arūpa-life, which you refuse to do … .

8.2.1.10

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: If there be such a state, you must identify it with either the Kāma-life, or Rūpa-life, or Arūpa-life, which you refuse to do … .

8.2.1.11

Arūpabhavoti?

Is it formless existence?

Theravādin: If there be such a state, you must identify it with either the Kāma-life, or Rūpa-life, or Arūpa-life, which you refuse to do … .

8.2.1.12

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

Theravādin: If there be such a state, you must identify it with either the Kāma-life, or Rūpa-life, or Arūpa-life, which you refuse to do … .

8.2.1.13

atthi antarābhavoti?

Is there an intermediate existence?

You deny that there is an intermediate state between the first and second, or the second and third, of these … you affirm, indeed, that there is no such thing; how then can you maintain your proposition?

8.2.1.14

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.1.15

Kāmabhavassa ca rūpabhavassa ca antare atthi antarābhavoti?

Is there an intermediate existence between sense existence and form existence?

8.2.1.16

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

8.2.1.17

atthi antarābhavoti?

Is there an intermediate existence?

8.2.1.18

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.1.19

Rūpabhavassa ca arūpabhavassa ca antare atthi antarābhavoti?

Is there an intermediate existence between the realm of luminous form and the formless realm?

8.2.1.20

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

8.2.2.1

Kāmabhavassa ca rūpabhavassa ca antare natthi antarābhavoti?

Is there no intermediate existence between the realm of sensual desire and the realm of luminous form?

8.2.2.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.2.3

Hañci kāmabhavassa ca rūpabhavassa ca antare natthi antarābhavo, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If there is no intermediate existence between the realm of sensual desire and the realm of luminous form, then indeed you should not say:

8.2.2.4

“atthi antarābhavo”ti.

“There is an intermediate existence.”

8.2.2.5

Rūpabhavassa ca arūpabhavassa ca antare natthi antarābhavoti?

Is there no intermediate existence between the realm of luminous form and the formless realm?

8.2.2.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.2.7

Hañci rūpabhavassa ca arūpabhavassa ca antare natthi antarābhavo, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If there is no intermediate existence between the realm of luminous form and the formless realm, then indeed you should not say:

8.2.2.8

“atthi antarābhavo”ti.

“There is an intermediate existence.”

8.2.3.1

Atthi antarābhavoti?

Is there an intermediate existence?

Is it a fifth matrix, a sixth destiny, an eighth station for reborn consciousness, a tenth realm of beings? Is it a mode of living, a destiny, a realm of beings, a renewal of life, a matrix, a station of consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Is there karma leading to it? Are there beings who approach thither? Do beings get born in it, grow old, die in it, decease from it, and get reborn from it? Do the five aggregates exist in it? Is it a five-mode existence? All this you deny. How then can you maintain your proposition?

8.2.3.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Is it a fifth matrix, a sixth destiny, an eighth station for reborn consciousness, a tenth realm of beings? Is it a mode of living, a destiny, a realm of beings, a renewal of life, a matrix, a station of consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Is there karma leading to it? Are there beings who approach thither? Do beings get born in it, grow old, die in it, decease from it, and get reborn from it? Do the five aggregates exist in it? Is it a five-mode existence? All this you deny. How then can you maintain your proposition?

8.2.3.3

Pañcamī sā yoni, chaṭṭhamī sā gati, aṭṭhamī sā viññāṇaṭṭhiti, dasamo so sattāvāsoti?

Is it a fifth womb, a sixth destination, an eighth station of consciousness, a tenth abode of beings?

Is it a fifth matrix, a sixth destiny, an eighth station for reborn consciousness, a tenth realm of beings? Is it a mode of living, a destiny, a realm of beings, a renewal of life, a matrix, a station of consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Is there karma leading to it? Are there beings who approach thither? Do beings get born in it, grow old, die in it, decease from it, and get reborn from it? Do the five aggregates exist in it? Is it a five-mode existence? All this you deny. How then can you maintain your proposition?

8.2.3.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Is it a fifth matrix, a sixth destiny, an eighth station for reborn consciousness, a tenth realm of beings? Is it a mode of living, a destiny, a realm of beings, a renewal of life, a matrix, a station of consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Is there karma leading to it? Are there beings who approach thither? Do beings get born in it, grow old, die in it, decease from it, and get reborn from it? Do the five aggregates exist in it? Is it a five-mode existence? All this you deny. How then can you maintain your proposition?

8.2.3.5

atthi antarābhavoti?

Is there an intermediate existence?

Is it a fifth matrix, a sixth destiny, an eighth station for reborn consciousness, a tenth realm of beings? Is it a mode of living, a destiny, a realm of beings, a renewal of life, a matrix, a station of consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Is there karma leading to it? Are there beings who approach thither? Do beings get born in it, grow old, die in it, decease from it, and get reborn from it? Do the five aggregates exist in it? Is it a five-mode existence? All this you deny. How then can you maintain your proposition?

8.2.3.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

Is it a fifth matrix, a sixth destiny, an eighth station for reborn consciousness, a tenth realm of beings? Is it a mode of living, a destiny, a realm of beings, a renewal of life, a matrix, a station of consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Is there karma leading to it? Are there beings who approach thither? Do beings get born in it, grow old, die in it, decease from it, and get reborn from it? Do the five aggregates exist in it? Is it a five-mode existence? All this you deny. How then can you maintain your proposition?

8.2.3.7

Antarābhavo bhavo gati sattāvāso saṃsāro yoni viññāṇaṭṭhiti attabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

Is the intermediate existence an existence, a destination, an abode of beings, saṃsāra, a womb, a station of consciousness, an acquisition of an individual existence?

Is it a fifth matrix, a sixth destiny, an eighth station for reborn consciousness, a tenth realm of beings? Is it a mode of living, a destiny, a realm of beings, a renewal of life, a matrix, a station of consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Is there karma leading to it? Are there beings who approach thither? Do beings get born in it, grow old, die in it, decease from it, and get reborn from it? Do the five aggregates exist in it? Is it a five-mode existence? All this you deny. How then can you maintain your proposition?

8.2.3.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Is it a fifth matrix, a sixth destiny, an eighth station for reborn consciousness, a tenth realm of beings? Is it a mode of living, a destiny, a realm of beings, a renewal of life, a matrix, a station of consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Is there karma leading to it? Are there beings who approach thither? Do beings get born in it, grow old, die in it, decease from it, and get reborn from it? Do the five aggregates exist in it? Is it a five-mode existence? All this you deny. How then can you maintain your proposition?

8.2.3.9

atthi antarābhavūpagaṃ kammanti?

Is there kamma leading to intermediate existence?

Is it a fifth matrix, a sixth destiny, an eighth station for reborn consciousness, a tenth realm of beings? Is it a mode of living, a destiny, a realm of beings, a renewal of life, a matrix, a station of consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Is there karma leading to it? Are there beings who approach thither? Do beings get born in it, grow old, die in it, decease from it, and get reborn from it? Do the five aggregates exist in it? Is it a five-mode existence? All this you deny. How then can you maintain your proposition?

8.2.3.10

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Is it a fifth matrix, a sixth destiny, an eighth station for reborn consciousness, a tenth realm of beings? Is it a mode of living, a destiny, a realm of beings, a renewal of life, a matrix, a station of consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Is there karma leading to it? Are there beings who approach thither? Do beings get born in it, grow old, die in it, decease from it, and get reborn from it? Do the five aggregates exist in it? Is it a five-mode existence? All this you deny. How then can you maintain your proposition?

8.2.3.11

atthi antarābhavūpagā sattāti?

Are there beings heading for intermediate existence?

Is it a fifth matrix, a sixth destiny, an eighth station for reborn consciousness, a tenth realm of beings? Is it a mode of living, a destiny, a realm of beings, a renewal of life, a matrix, a station of consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Is there karma leading to it? Are there beings who approach thither? Do beings get born in it, grow old, die in it, decease from it, and get reborn from it? Do the five aggregates exist in it? Is it a five-mode existence? All this you deny. How then can you maintain your proposition?

8.2.3.12

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Is it a fifth matrix, a sixth destiny, an eighth station for reborn consciousness, a tenth realm of beings? Is it a mode of living, a destiny, a realm of beings, a renewal of life, a matrix, a station of consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Is there karma leading to it? Are there beings who approach thither? Do beings get born in it, grow old, die in it, decease from it, and get reborn from it? Do the five aggregates exist in it? Is it a five-mode existence? All this you deny. How then can you maintain your proposition?

8.2.3.13

antarābhave sattā jāyanti jīyanti mīyanti cavanti upapajjantīti?

Do beings get born, age, die, pass away, and re-arise in an intermediate existence?

Is it a fifth matrix, a sixth destiny, an eighth station for reborn consciousness, a tenth realm of beings? Is it a mode of living, a destiny, a realm of beings, a renewal of life, a matrix, a station of consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Is there karma leading to it? Are there beings who approach thither? Do beings get born in it, grow old, die in it, decease from it, and get reborn from it? Do the five aggregates exist in it? Is it a five-mode existence? All this you deny. How then can you maintain your proposition?

8.2.3.14

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Is it a fifth matrix, a sixth destiny, an eighth station for reborn consciousness, a tenth realm of beings? Is it a mode of living, a destiny, a realm of beings, a renewal of life, a matrix, a station of consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Is there karma leading to it? Are there beings who approach thither? Do beings get born in it, grow old, die in it, decease from it, and get reborn from it? Do the five aggregates exist in it? Is it a five-mode existence? All this you deny. How then can you maintain your proposition?

8.2.3.15

antarābhave atthi rūpaṃ vedanā saññā saṅkhārā viññāṇanti?

In an intermediate existence are there material form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness?

Is it a fifth matrix, a sixth destiny, an eighth station for reborn consciousness, a tenth realm of beings? Is it a mode of living, a destiny, a realm of beings, a renewal of life, a matrix, a station of consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Is there karma leading to it? Are there beings who approach thither? Do beings get born in it, grow old, die in it, decease from it, and get reborn from it? Do the five aggregates exist in it? Is it a five-mode existence? All this you deny. How then can you maintain your proposition?

8.2.3.16

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

Is it a fifth matrix, a sixth destiny, an eighth station for reborn consciousness, a tenth realm of beings? Is it a mode of living, a destiny, a realm of beings, a renewal of life, a matrix, a station of consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Is there karma leading to it? Are there beings who approach thither? Do beings get born in it, grow old, die in it, decease from it, and get reborn from it? Do the five aggregates exist in it? Is it a five-mode existence? All this you deny. How then can you maintain your proposition?

8.2.3.17

antarābhavo pañcavokārabhavoti?

Is the intermediate existence a five-constituent existence?

Is it a fifth matrix, a sixth destiny, an eighth station for reborn consciousness, a tenth realm of beings? Is it a mode of living, a destiny, a realm of beings, a renewal of life, a matrix, a station of consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Is there karma leading to it? Are there beings who approach thither? Do beings get born in it, grow old, die in it, decease from it, and get reborn from it? Do the five aggregates exist in it? Is it a five-mode existence? All this you deny. How then can you maintain your proposition?

8.2.3.18

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

Is it a fifth matrix, a sixth destiny, an eighth station for reborn consciousness, a tenth realm of beings? Is it a mode of living, a destiny, a realm of beings, a renewal of life, a matrix, a station of consciousness, an acquiring of individuality? Is there karma leading to it? Are there beings who approach thither? Do beings get born in it, grow old, die in it, decease from it, and get reborn from it? Do the five aggregates exist in it? Is it a five-mode existence? All this you deny. How then can you maintain your proposition?

8.2.4.1

Atthi kāmabhavo, kāmabhavo bhavo gati sattāvāso saṃsāro yoni viññāṇaṭṭhiti attabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

There is the realm of sensual desire; and is the realm of sensual desire an existence, a destination, an abode of beings, saṃsāra, a womb, a station of consciousness, an acquisition of an individual existence?

You admit that every one of these categories or notions applies to each of the three planes of life named above, the only difference being that the first two—Kāma-life and Rūpa-life—are five-mode existences; the last—Arūpa-life—is a four-mode existence (that is, without material qualities). If then there is an intermediate stage of life, you must be able to predicate some or all of these notions or categories of it. But you say you cannot … .

8.2.4.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.4.3

Atthi antarābhavo, antarābhavo bhavo gati sattāvāso saṃsāro yoni viññāṇaṭṭhiti attabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

There is the intermediate existence; and is the intermediate existence an existence, a destination, an abode of beings, saṃsāra, a womb, a station of consciousness, an acquisition of an individual existence?

8.2.4.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.4.5

atthi kāmabhavūpagaṃ kammanti?

Is there kamma leading to the realm of sensual desire?

8.2.4.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.4.7

Atthi antarābhavūpagaṃ kammanti?

Is there kamma leading to intermediate existence?

8.2.4.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.4.9

atthi kāmabhavūpagā sattāti?

Are there beings heading for the realm of sensual desire?

8.2.4.10

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.4.11

Atthi antarābhavūpagā sattāti?

Are there beings heading for intermediate existence?

8.2.4.12

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.4.13

kāmabhave sattā jāyanti jīyanti mīyanti cavanti upapajjantīti?

Do beings get born, age, die, pass away, and re-arise in the realm of sensual desire?

8.2.4.14

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.4.15

Antarābhave sattā jāyanti jīyanti mīyanti cavanti upapajjantīti?

Do beings get born, age, die, pass away, and re-arise in an intermediate existence?

8.2.4.16

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.4.17

kāmabhave atthi rūpaṃ vedanā saññā saṅkhārā viññāṇanti?

In the realm of sensual desire are there material form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness?

8.2.4.18

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.4.19

Antarābhave atthi rūpaṃ vedanā saññā saṅkhārā viññāṇanti?

In an intermediate existence are there material form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness?

8.2.4.20

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.4.21

kāmabhavo pañcavokārabhavoti?

Is the realm of sensual desire a five-constituent existence?

8.2.4.22

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.4.23

Antarābhavo pañcavokārabhavoti?

Is the intermediate state of existence a five-aggregate existence?

8.2.4.24

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

8.2.5.1

Atthi rūpabhavo, rūpabhavo bhavo gati sattāvāso saṃsāro yoni viññāṇaṭṭhiti attabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

There is material existence, and is material existence a realm of existence, a destination, an abode of beings, a wandering-on, a womb, a station of consciousness, an acquisition of personal individuality?

8.2.5.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.5.3

Atthi antarābhavo, antarābhavo bhavo gati sattāvāso saṃsāro yoni viññāṇaṭṭhiti attabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

There is an intermediate state of existence, and is the intermediate state of existence a realm of existence, a destination, an abode of beings, a wandering-on, a womb, a station of consciousness, an acquisition of personal individuality?

8.2.5.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.5.5

atthi rūpabhavūpagaṃ kammanti?

is there kamma conducive to material existence?

8.2.5.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.5.7

Atthi antarābhavūpagaṃ kammanti?

Is there kamma conducive to an intermediate state of existence?

8.2.5.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.5.9

atthi rūpabhavūpagā sattāti?

are there beings who go to material existence?

8.2.5.10

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.5.11

Atthi antarābhavūpagā sattāti?

Are there beings who go to an intermediate state of existence?

8.2.5.12

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.5.13

rūpabhave sattā jāyanti jīyanti mīyanti cavanti upapajjantīti?

in material existence, are beings born, do they age, die, pass away, and reappear?

8.2.5.14

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.5.15

Antarābhave sattā jāyanti jīyanti mīyanti cavanti upapajjantīti?

In the intermediate state of existence, are beings born, do they age, die, pass away, and reappear?

8.2.5.16

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.5.17

rūpabhave atthi rūpaṃ vedanā saññā saṅkhārā viññāṇanti?

in material existence, is there material form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, consciousness?

8.2.5.18

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.5.19

Antarābhave atthi rūpaṃ vedanā saññā saṅkhārā viññāṇanti?

In the intermediate state of existence, is there material form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, consciousness?

8.2.5.20

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.5.21

rūpabhavo pañcavokārabhavoti?

is material existence a five-aggregate existence?

8.2.5.22

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.5.23

Antarābhavo pañcavokārabhavoti?

Is the intermediate state of existence a five-aggregate existence?

8.2.5.24

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

8.2.6.1

Atthi arūpabhavo, arūpabhavo bhavo gati sattāvāso saṃsāro yoni viññāṇaṭṭhiti attabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

There is immaterial existence, and is immaterial existence a realm of existence, a destination, an abode of beings, a wandering-on, a womb, a station of consciousness, an acquisition of personal individuality?

8.2.6.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.6.3

Atthi antarābhavo, antarābhavo bhavo gati sattāvāso saṃsāro yoni viññāṇaṭṭhiti attabhāvapaṭilābhoti?

There is an intermediate state of existence, and is the intermediate state of existence a realm of existence, a destination, an abode of beings, a wandering-on, a womb, a station of consciousness, an acquisition of personal individuality?

8.2.6.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.6.5

atthi arūpabhavūpagaṃ kammanti?

is there kamma conducive to immaterial existence?

8.2.6.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.6.7

Atthi antarābhavūpagaṃ kammanti?

Is there kamma conducive to an intermediate state of existence?

8.2.6.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.6.9

atthi arūpabhavūpagā sattāti?

are there beings who go to immaterial existence?

8.2.6.10

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.6.11

Atthi antarābhavūpagā sattāti?

Are there beings who go to an intermediate state of existence?

8.2.6.12

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.6.13

arūpabhave sattā jāyanti jīyanti mīyanti cavanti upapajjantīti?

in immaterial existence, are beings born, do they age, die, pass away, and reappear?

8.2.6.14

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.6.15

Antarābhave sattā jāyanti jīyanti mīyanti cavanti upapajjantīti?

In the intermediate state of existence, are beings born, do they age, die, pass away, and reappear?

8.2.6.16

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.6.17

arūpabhave atthi vedanā saññā saṅkhārā viññāṇanti?

in immaterial existence, is there feeling, perception, volitional formations, consciousness?

8.2.6.18

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.6.19

Antarābhave atthi vedanā saññā saṅkhārā viññāṇanti?

In the intermediate state of existence, is there feeling, perception, volitional formations, consciousness?

8.2.6.20

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.6.21

arūpabhavo catuvokārabhavoti?

is immaterial existence a four-aggregate existence?

8.2.6.22

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.6.23

Antarābhavo catuvokārabhavoti?

Is the intermediate state of existence a four-aggregate existence?

8.2.6.24

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus …pe….

8.2.7.1

Atthi antarābhavoti?

Is there an intermediate state of existence?

But you deny also that there is an intermediate life for all beings. Hence your proposition is not universally valid.

8.2.7.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

But you deny also that there is an intermediate life for all beings. Hence your proposition is not universally valid.

8.2.7.3

Sabbesaññeva sattānaṃ atthi antarābhavoti?

Is there an intermediate state of existence for all beings without exception?

But you deny also that there is an intermediate life for all beings. Hence your proposition is not universally valid.

8.2.7.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

But you deny also that there is an intermediate life for all beings. Hence your proposition is not universally valid.

8.2.7.5

sabbesaññeva sattānaṃ natthi antarābhavoti?

is there no intermediate state of existence for all beings without exception?

But you deny also that there is an intermediate life for all beings. Hence your proposition is not universally valid.

8.2.7.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

But you deny also that there is an intermediate life for all beings. Hence your proposition is not universally valid.

8.2.7.7

Hañci sabbesaññeva sattānaṃ natthi antarābhavo, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If there is no intermediate state of existence for all beings without exception, then surely one should not say—

But you deny also that there is an intermediate life for all beings. Hence your proposition is not universally valid.

8.2.7.8

“atthi antarābhavo”ti.

“There is an intermediate state of existence.”

But you deny also that there is an intermediate life for all beings. Hence your proposition is not universally valid.

8.2.8.1

Atthi antarābhavoti?

Is there an intermediate state of existence?

For whom then do you deny the intermediate state? For the person whose retribution is immediate? If you assent, to that extent your proposition is for you not true. Or is it for the person whose retribution is not immediate that you affirm this state? Yes, you say. Then you must deny it for his opposite.

8.2.8.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.8.3

Ānantariyassa puggalassa atthi antarābhavoti?

Is there an intermediate existence for a person liable to immediate [retribution]?

8.2.8.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.8.5

ānantariyassa puggalassa natthi antarābhavoti?

Is there no intermediate existence for a person liable to immediate [retribution]?

8.2.8.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.8.7

Hañci ānantariyassa puggalassa natthi antarābhavo, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If there is no intermediate existence for a person liable to immediate [retribution], then indeed you should not say:

8.2.8.8

“atthi antarābhavo”ti.

“There is an intermediate existence.”

8.2.9.1

Na ānantariyassa puggalassa atthi antarābhavoti?

Is there an intermediate existence for a person not liable to immediate [retribution]?

8.2.9.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.9.3

Ānantariyassa puggalassa atthi antarābhavoti?

Is there an intermediate existence for a person liable to immediate [retribution]?

8.2.9.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …pe…

8.2.9.5

ānantariyassa puggalassa natthi antarābhavoti?

Is there no intermediate existence for a person bound for immediate retribution?

8.2.9.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

8.2.9.7

Na ānantariyassa puggalassa natthi antarābhavoti?

Is it not that there is no intermediate existence for a person bound for immediate retribution?

8.2.9.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

8.2.9.9

nirayūpagassa puggalassa …pe…

For a person bound for hell …

You deny it also for one who is to be reborn in purgatory, in the sphere of unconscious beings, in the immaterial

8.2.9.10

asaññasattūpagassa puggalassa …pe…

for a person bound for the non-percipient beings …

You deny it also for one who is to be reborn in purgatory, in the sphere of unconscious beings, in the immaterial

8.2.9.11

arūpūpagassa puggalassa atthi antarābhavoti?

is there an intermediate existence for a person bound for the formless realm?

You deny it also for one who is to be reborn in purgatory, in the sphere of unconscious beings, in the immaterial

8.2.9.12

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

heavens. Therefore to that extent your proposition is not universally valid. Nevertheless, you maintain that there

8.2.9.13

arūpūpagassa puggalassa natthi antarābhavoti?

is there no intermediate existence for a person bound for the formless realm?

heavens. Therefore to that extent your proposition is not universally valid. Nevertheless, you maintain that there

8.2.9.14

Āmantā.

Yes.

heavens. Therefore to that extent your proposition is not universally valid. Nevertheless, you maintain that there

8.2.9.15

Hañci arūpūpagassa puggalassa natthi antarābhavo, no ca vata re vattabbe—

If there is no intermediate existence for a person bound for the formless realm, then indeed you should not say:

heavens. Therefore to that extent your proposition is not universally valid. Nevertheless, you maintain that there

8.2.9.16

“atthi antarābhavo”ti.

“There is an intermediate existence.”

heavens. Therefore to that extent your proposition is not universally valid. Nevertheless, you maintain that there

8.2.10.1

Na arūpūpagassa puggalassa atthi antarābhavoti?

Is it not that there is an intermediate existence for a person bound for the formless realm?

is an intermediate stage of life for one whose retribution is not immediate, for one who is not to be reborn in purgatory, nor among the “unconscious beings”, nor in the immaterial heavens. Concerning these you have yet to state in what respect, as a plane of life, it resembles, or differs from, the three named by the Exalted One.

8.2.10.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

is an intermediate stage of life for one whose retribution is not immediate, for one who is not to be reborn in purgatory, nor among the “unconscious beings”, nor in the immaterial heavens. Concerning these you have yet to state in what respect, as a plane of life, it resembles, or differs from, the three named by the Exalted One.

8.2.10.3

Arūpūpagassa puggalassa atthi antarābhavoti?

Is there an intermediate existence for a person bound for the formless realm?

is an intermediate stage of life for one whose retribution is not immediate, for one who is not to be reborn in purgatory, nor among the “unconscious beings”, nor in the immaterial heavens. Concerning these you have yet to state in what respect, as a plane of life, it resembles, or differs from, the three named by the Exalted One.

8.2.10.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

is an intermediate stage of life for one whose retribution is not immediate, for one who is not to be reborn in purgatory, nor among the “unconscious beings”, nor in the immaterial heavens. Concerning these you have yet to state in what respect, as a plane of life, it resembles, or differs from, the three named by the Exalted One.

8.2.10.5

arūpūpagassa puggalassa natthi antarābhavoti?

is there no intermediate existence for a person bound for the formless realm?

is an intermediate stage of life for one whose retribution is not immediate, for one who is not to be reborn in purgatory, nor among the “unconscious beings”, nor in the immaterial heavens. Concerning these you have yet to state in what respect, as a plane of life, it resembles, or differs from, the three named by the Exalted One.

8.2.10.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

is an intermediate stage of life for one whose retribution is not immediate, for one who is not to be reborn in purgatory, nor among the “unconscious beings”, nor in the immaterial heavens. Concerning these you have yet to state in what respect, as a plane of life, it resembles, or differs from, the three named by the Exalted One.

8.2.10.7

Na arūpūpagassa puggalassa natthi antarābhavoti?

Is it not that there is no intermediate existence for a person bound for the formless realm?

is an intermediate stage of life for one whose retribution is not immediate, for one who is not to be reborn in purgatory, nor among the “unconscious beings”, nor in the immaterial heavens. Concerning these you have yet to state in what respect, as a plane of life, it resembles, or differs from, the three named by the Exalted One.

8.2.10.8

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus ….

is an intermediate stage of life for one whose retribution is not immediate, for one who is not to be reborn in purgatory, nor among the “unconscious beings”, nor in the immaterial heavens. Concerning these you have yet to state in what respect, as a plane of life, it resembles, or differs from, the three named by the Exalted One.

8.2.11.1

Na vattabbaṃ atthi antarābhavoti?

Should it not be said: “There is an intermediate existence”?

Pubbaseliya, Sammitiya: But are there not beings who “complete existence within the first half of the term”? If so, are we not right?

8.2.11.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Pubbaseliya, Sammitiya: But are there not beings who “complete existence within the first half of the term”? If so, are we not right?

8.2.11.3

Nanu antarāparinibbāyī puggalo atthīti?

Is there not a person who attains final unbinding in-between?

Pubbaseliya, Sammitiya: But are there not beings who “complete existence within the first half of the term”? If so, are we not right?

8.2.11.4

Āmantā.

Yes.

Pubbaseliya, Sammitiya: But are there not beings who “complete existence within the first half of the term”? If so, are we not right?

8.2.11.5

Hañci antarāparinibbāyī puggalo atthi, tena vata re vattabbe—

If there is a person who attains final unbinding in-between, then indeed you should say:

Pubbaseliya, Sammitiya: But are there not beings who “complete existence within the first half of the term”? If so, are we not right?

8.2.11.6

“atthi antarābhavo”ti.

“There is an intermediate existence.”

Pubbaseliya, Sammitiya: But are there not beings who “complete existence within the first half of the term”? If so, are we not right?

8.2.12.1

Antarāparinibbāyī puggalo atthīti katvā atthi antarābhavoti?

Because there is a person who attains final unbinding in-between, is there an intermediate existence?

Theravādin: Granted that there are such beings, is there a separate interval-state between any two recognized existences? Yes, you say. But granted that there are beings who “complete existence within the second half of the term”, is there a separate state of life corresponding thereto? If you deny, you must also deny your proposition since you rest it on this basis.

8.2.12.2

Āmantā.

Yes.

Theravādin: Granted that there are such beings, is there a separate interval-state between any two recognized existences? Yes, you say. But granted that there are beings who “complete existence within the second half of the term”, is there a separate state of life corresponding thereto? If you deny, you must also deny your proposition since you rest it on this basis.

8.2.12.3

Upahaccaparinibbāyī puggalo atthīti katvā atthi upahaccabhavoti?

Because there is a person who attains final unbinding upon landing, is there an upon-landing existence?

Theravādin: Granted that there are such beings, is there a separate interval-state between any two recognized existences? Yes, you say. But granted that there are beings who “complete existence within the second half of the term”, is there a separate state of life corresponding thereto? If you deny, you must also deny your proposition since you rest it on this basis.

8.2.12.4

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe…

It should not be said thus …

Theravādin: Granted that there are such beings, is there a separate interval-state between any two recognized existences? Yes, you say. But granted that there are beings who “complete existence within the second half of the term”, is there a separate state of life corresponding thereto? If you deny, you must also deny your proposition since you rest it on this basis.

8.2.12.5

antarāparinibbāyī puggalo atthīti katvā atthi antarābhavoti?

because there is a person who attains final unbinding in-between, is there an intermediate existence?

The same argument applies to such cognate terms as “beings who complete existence without”, and again, “with difficulty and striving”.

8.2.12.6

Āmantā.

Yes.

The same argument applies to such cognate terms as “beings who complete existence without”, and again, “with difficulty and striving”.

8.2.12.7

Asaṅkhāraparinibbāyī puggalo …pe…

A person who attains final unbinding without exertion …

The same argument applies to such cognate terms as “beings who complete existence without”, and again, “with difficulty and striving”.

8.2.12.8

sasaṅkhāraparinibbāyī puggalo atthīti katvā atthi sasaṅkhārabhavoti?

because there is a person who attains final unbinding with exertion, is there a with-exertion existence?

The same argument applies to such cognate terms as “beings who complete existence without”, and again, “with difficulty and striving”.

8.2.12.9

Na hevaṃ vattabbe …pe….

It should not be said thus ….

The same argument applies to such cognate terms as “beings who complete existence without”, and again, “with difficulty and striving”.

8.2.12.10

Antarābhavakathā niṭṭhitā.

The discussion on intermediate existence is finished.